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collywobles
30 Nov 2012 - 5:38 PM


Quote: unless of course cameron sees the light and calls a referendum

The danger in this is that the result of a referendum might be that we come out of the EU. I honestly believe that most people do not fully understand the benfits of being a member of the EU and will vote on what the newspaper headlines say or some glib throw away remark made by some poltician.

Yes there is a lot wrong with it, the budget, the stupid rules, the fact that it has never had its accounts signed off ever, but you have to be within to make changes and from my point of view we are better off in than out.

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30 Nov 2012 - 5:38 PM

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tomcat
tomcat e2 Member 85744 forum poststomcat vcard United Kingdom15 Constructive Critique Points
30 Nov 2012 - 7:37 PM

I always understood it as a reason to have a peaceful, non warning Europe and no repeat of the genocide of the late 30's ,early 40's

Unfortunately the so called coalition of Europe stood by and let a similar occurrence take place in the Balkans
The U.S.A had to step in and sort it out, while the Germans, French and us, all stood on the touchline, wondering what to do

Last Modified By tomcat at 30 Nov 2012 - 7:38 PM
thewilliam
1 Dec 2012 - 12:27 AM


Quote: unless of course cameron sees the light and calls a referendum

The danger in this is that the result of a referendum might be that we come out of the EU.

Won't this depend on which side the press barons take? The populace do tend to vote as they're told to!

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
1 Dec 2012 - 9:09 AM


Quote: The populace do tend to vote as they're told to!

We have had this sort of statement before, the electorate is reasonably astute. What has been asked for is referendum not removal from the EU. Why should we not trust the electorate? I for one do not trust the politicians who are very good at spending money belonging to other people and who regard the EU as a place for politicians who have either been deposed from or who look for an extension of their chosen place of work. How the outcome of a referendum would affect both the electorate and the country is secondary to them.

Seeing another costly exercise about to befall the electorate of this country in 2 weeks time, more of us will wish to leave the corrupt, gravy train for politicians than ever before. Traditionally, for many reasons motor insurance for females is cheaper than equivalent cover for men and pension annuities were better for men that for women. This of course was a calculation based on the relevant risk involved and life expectancy. Now though the EU in all its wisdom has decided that insurance companies must treat men and women equally regardles sof risk assessments. The outcome is far more (up to 300% more) expensive insurance for lady drivers and 10% less to be paid by way of pensions for men.

This sort of interference is fully understood by ALL and whether or not the intricate vagaries are understood by all, the basics are. Should a referendum cause us to leave the expensive, corrupt and unelected EU it will not be due to press interference or sumbliminal cuts in newsflashes, but due to the fact that we will be far better off on our own making our own decicions about who can live and work here, trading with who we wish and the EU will still trade because they need us more than we need them. As a bonus it will be farewell to Abu Quatada and his ranting friends.

Should the electorate wish to remain then that too should be respected, either way there should be the opportunity for us to decide. I do believe that we know better than professional politicians just what is better for us ie in or out. We employ MPs to represent our wishes, should they therefore be for a referendum then we should be granted one and the outcome must be respected. MPs of all parties would be given air time to express their views and hearing MPs talk 'live' is better than reading editorials so the people will not be voting 'as they are told to do' as you say, but as they feel is best for both the country and also its people based on a balanced arguement.

Last Modified By Focus_Man at 1 Dec 2012 - 9:15 AM
mikehit
mikehit e2 Member 45766 forum postsmikehit vcard United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
1 Dec 2012 - 9:12 AM


Quote: I always understood it as a reason to have a peaceful, non warning Europe and no repeat of the genocide of the late 30's ,early 40's

Unfortunately the so called coalition of Europe stood by and let a similar occurrence take place in the Balkans
The U.S.A had to step in and sort it out, while the Germans, French and us, all stood on the touchline, wondering what to do

No. They knew exactly what to do. In the early days, it was a secession which turned ugly and international policy at the time was that you do not get involved in internal disputes (where do you stop?). It was Germany who added fuel to the fire by breaking ranks and outwardly supporting the Croats with whom they have strong cultural links (much as the Serbs had with Russia), fuelling their actions and making them worse. Germany refused point blank to allow the EU to take a conciliatory role.
Then by the time the situation had escalated, it was a total mess whether it was EU or US who took the initiative are not entirely clear.

mikehit
mikehit e2 Member 45766 forum postsmikehit vcard United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
1 Dec 2012 - 9:19 AM


Quote: As a bonus it will be farewell to Abu Quatada and his ranting friends.

That statement right there illustrates the ignorance perpterated by the press. The European Court of Human Rights is absolutely nothing to do with the EU. I believe this has been pointed out to you before, but you steadfastly refuse to listen.
So if you want to continue believing that the press cannot influence public opinion then go right ahead.

The insurance matter is a knock-on effect of anti-discrimination law. No more, no less. It is a great example of the law off unintended consequences. Personally I agree that insurance should be free to tailor their products to a group based on the risks of that group, but I can see how the anti-sex discrimination has blown that out of the water.
The next move could well be laws against age discrimination. I am sure you are all for it, but one consequence could be that they are not allowed to have higher premiums for under-25s. So we will all pay for the boy racers.

collywobles
1 Dec 2012 - 9:23 AM


Quote: The U.S.A had to step in and sort it out, while the Germans, French and us, all stood on the touchline, wondering what to do

..... and the UK have just done it again by abstaining from the UN Palestinian vote. Good on yer UK I dont think so ....!

Without copying and pasting all of Focus Mans comments. -- Some of your comments are quite valid but they are miniscule in comparison to the benefits thats belonging to the EU has and can bring.

Alan_Baseley
Alan_Baseley e2 Member 12314 forum postsAlan_Baseley vcard England2 Constructive Critique Points
1 Dec 2012 - 10:45 AM


Quote: -- Some of your comments are quite valid but they are miniscule in comparison to the benefits thats belonging to the EU has and can bring.

Errrr.. Benefits to whom? What benefits? I notice you use the words can bring and not does bring.

There are great benefits to French farmers and Spanish fishermen, politicians and Eurocrats. Is that what you were talking about?

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
1 Dec 2012 - 1:18 PM


Quote: . The European Court of Human Rights is absolutely nothing to do with the EU.

Er Did you say EUROPEAN COURT of Human Rights????? Most of the electorate want nothing to do with Europe, I keep telling you that but you don't seem to listen! A referendum will render the European court of Human Rights redundant and then, as promised but not yet deliverable due to the EU laws, we can revert to the promised British Bill of Rights.

A EUROPEAN COURT is run by people who we did not elect nor does it use British laws when making decicions. I do not believe do the British wish them to have jurisdictionm over the UK. So generally it is one and the same thing. Far too much interference in our affairs from Europe, like stopping this government, that we elected to manage our affairs, booting out Abu Quatada as I mentioned earlier.

lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1013937 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
1 Dec 2012 - 2:12 PM


Quote: A EUROPEAN COURT is run by people who we did not elect nor does it use British laws when making decicions. I do not believe do the British wish them to have jurisdictionm over the UK. So generally it is one and the same thing.

Not really - the EU is a different organization to the Council of Europe (of which Britain was a founding member in 1949).
Leaving the Council of Europe would mean that our international standing would be considerably lower. We could hardly lecture the rest of the world about Human Rights when we are not prepared to give our citizens the same rights that the likes of Kazakstan and Russia!

Alan_Baseley
Alan_Baseley e2 Member 12314 forum postsAlan_Baseley vcard England2 Constructive Critique Points
1 Dec 2012 - 3:14 PM


Quote: ....when we are not prepared to give our citizens the same rights that the likes of Kazakstan and Russia!

Are you seriously suggesting that if we pulled out of the European Court of Human Rights we would have less rights than the the citizens of Putin's Russia? Seriously?

Last Modified By Alan_Baseley at 1 Dec 2012 - 3:20 PM
collywobles
1 Dec 2012 - 4:05 PM


Quote:
Errrr.. Benefits to whom? What benefits? I notice you use the words can bring and not does bring.

There are great benefits to French farmers and Spanish fishermen, politicians and Eurocrats. Is that what you were talking about?

Free border crossing (although you would interperate that as free illegal immigration) Car emission controls and safety, funded projects such as road building, peace in Europe, etc - its not all bad news,

Thats my point, the Britsh public have no real interest in the EU other than headline critciism from newspapers or politicians about fish stocks or French farmers or straight cucumbers...... Which is why I would not want to see a referendum because the British public are not interested in listening to the positives that the EU brings. The pulic are so stupid about serious issues on the EU that if someone on X Factor said the EU is good on Saturday the public would vote for it on Sunday. You only have to see which are the most popular newspapers - The Sun, Daily Mirror, Daily Mail......... real thought provoking journalism..........

Last Modified By collywobles at 1 Dec 2012 - 4:14 PM
lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1013937 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
1 Dec 2012 - 4:09 PM


Quote: Are you seriously suggesting that if we pulled out of the European Court of Human Rights we would have less rights than the the citizens of Putin's Russia? Seriously?

That's what it would look like to the rest of the world.

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
1 Dec 2012 - 4:23 PM


Quote: We could hardly lecture the rest of the world about Human Rights when we are not prepared to give our citizens the same rights that the likes of Kazakstan and Russia!

Who ever said that? Our own Bill of Rights would look after us better than the EU does and possible betetr than anywhere else in the worls. we will be the envy of the world in fact.

What a ball ache talking about kazaklstan and Russia, biggest red herring ever. Just keep to our Bill of Rights in mind OK. Apart from that, the rest of the world looking at our Bill of Rights, would wish they could have the same. As for lecturing the world, we should keep out of that sort of thing. If you want to lecture the world go and live in the USA not here. we interfere far too much and end up with or youth in the forces losing their lives in far away holes like Afghanistan and Iraq, that is not for me but it looks like it is for you so perhaps your best bet once we leave Europe is for you to move there. You will still be able to use EPZ.

lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1013937 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
1 Dec 2012 - 4:39 PM


Quote: Our own Bill of Rights would look after us better than the EU does and possible betetr than anywhere else in the worls. we will be the envy of the world in fact.

And again, its nothing to do with the EU.

What exactly would be difference between a UK bill of rights and the European Convention?

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