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collywobles
21 Nov 2012 - 9:03 AM


Quote: It seems as if we currently have a government that actually want to run the country rather than just buying our votes at election time.

Err, do you want to re-phrase that. Nothing like buying votes to reduce the 50 pence tax down to 40pence. Thos government is the worst one that I can remember.

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brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110366 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
21 Nov 2012 - 9:09 AM


Quote: Nothing like buying votes to reduce the 50 pence tax down to 40pence.

How will this help with the next election when, as so many here keep saying, it only benefits a small minority (so, by definition can't make any difference)

The previous bunch had the right idea, give state sponsored jobs to large numbers of people and you buy their votes for life, now that is good "Politics"

thewilliam
21 Nov 2012 - 10:25 AM

Until our present Prime Minister took over, I thought Gordon Brown was our worst within living memory.

Senior politicians seen to be completely insulated from the real world that the common people inhabit. Cameron lives behind iron gates and armed guards so we can't really blame him. As a small boy in the 1950s, I was able to walk along Downing Street, talk to the policeman outside No 10 and then exchange a hello with the Prime Minister when he emerged.

mikehit
mikehit  56688 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
21 Nov 2012 - 10:37 AM

I am not sure why you say he is 'the worst' - not defending him, just interested.

The problem is, the public want to see someone 'taking action' yet don't like control freaks.
A significant part of Blair (especially Blair) and Brown was doing things just so they can be seen to be doing things and that is always a recipe for disaster. On top of that Brown made some pretty disastrous decisions for the British economy because he was convinced he was right and god help anyone who disagreed with him. I get a different feeling from Cameron/Clegg in that they are planning to manage the process rather than trying to force it. You may not like their policies but I have not seen the errors on the level that Brown made.
I don't know about you, but some of the best managers I have had are unobtrusive in the background but know what is going on - rather like the best referees in a football match. Go to far one way, andyou get micro-managers, go too far the other way and you lose control.


Quote: Senior politicians seen to be completely insulated from the real world that the common people inhabit. Cameron lives behind iron gates and armed guards so we can't really blame him. As a small boy in the 1950s, I was able to walk along Downing Street, talk to the policeman outside No 10 and then exchange a hello with the Prime Minister when he emerged.

Remember Borwn's 'bigot' remark? He as really in-touch with the 'common person'.
Why is it that because someone had a public shool education the automatic assumptoin is that they don't understand everyday concerns? Whereas someone from state education automatically does understand? To me that is bias and bigotry as bad as any other.
And don't forget, it was Blair's premiership that cemented the sort of security measures you decry.

Last Modified By mikehit at 21 Nov 2012 - 10:40 AM
collywobles
21 Nov 2012 - 10:42 AM

................... and on TV the other night they are sill fidling their expenses.............

jondf
jondf  82475 forum posts
21 Nov 2012 - 12:32 PM


Quote: Until our present Prime Minister took over, I thought Gordon Brown was our worst within living memory.

Actually, GB was a successful chancellor of the exchequer who got unlucky becoming prime minister at the time he did.

In the 10 years of his chancellorship, Brown oversaw the most stable economic conditions in the UK for over 100 years. We were held up by other countries as an example to follow. There'll be those who'll beef on about him selling 'all' the gold reserves (it was 50%), but so were other countries, even Switzerland. And others who'll say he didn't police the banks properly enough, but neither did any other country that I know of. It is a shame he became PM at the time he did but that's life I guess.

lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1014170 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
21 Nov 2012 - 12:46 PM


Quote: As a small boy in the 1950s, I was able to walk along Downing Street, talk to the policeman outside No 10 and then exchange a hello with the Prime Minister when he emerged.

In a world before suicide bombers.

strawman
strawman  1022010 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
21 Nov 2012 - 12:58 PM

I am not so convinced on GB doing a good job, look at government borrowing during good times when he was in charge and tell me again he did not play a part in the current problems.

mikehit
mikehit  56688 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
21 Nov 2012 - 12:59 PM

So let's see - he was a good chancellor because of the stability he brought to the country, but unlucky about the time he became PM. Surely 'stability' is about steadiness in good times and bad times - in his tenure as Chancellor he had only good times and we are now seeing our lack of 'stability' in bad.
So, alternatively: he was actually a liability as Chancellor but lucky that he was Chancellor at the time he was because global growth masked the poor decisons he made?

Gordon Brown was one of the architects of 'light touch' banking regulations so the defence 'everyone else was doing it' is pretty disingenuous. And for a man who likes to claim that he warned the world about the dangers of unfettered growth it seems rather two-faced.
At the time of the gold sale, there were plenty commentators warning that selling off was not leaving us with the reserves we needed (and don't forget, reserves are a safety net for poor times in the future) so he was hardly running a sound line there. As well as the gold sale there was the pension raiding fiasco this money. And he used this money to expand an ever-expensive public sector.

Then there was the immigration: Milliband recently said that Labour was wrong to open borders to Eastern European immigrants when the EU was expanded . That again was Brown's tenure and puts into a different light his accusation of 'bigot' against the old lady.


Quote: We were held up by other countries as an example to follow.

And the tulip bubble seemed pretty sensible at the time as well, and we know think of them as gullible idiots.
The problem with economics is that everyone is was schooled in economic theory in the same era and like-thinking people will get to lead each country, so of course they will agree someone' success is a 'good thing'. The key to long-term success is what you do in the good times to plan for the bad, but unfortunately too many chancellors fool themselves that the good times will keep on being good. Brown was typical.

lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1014170 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
21 Nov 2012 - 1:38 PM


Quote: I am not so convinced on GB doing a good job, look at government borrowing during good times when he was in charge and tell me again he did not play a part in the current problems.

Just been looking - doesn't look exceptional to me till the crash happened:

67-capture.jpg

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110366 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
21 Nov 2012 - 1:42 PM


Quote: but unfortunately too many chancellors fool themselves that the good times will keep on being good

maybe the real trouble is that that is the message the average voter wants to hear and believe so the politicians feel that they have at adjust "Reality" to match.

For all his faults Cameron is the first one I have heard who has tried to spell out how dire our economic situation is (and has been for over a decade, despite appearances to the contrary) when he talked about the UK having to be on a War Footing.

There is an economic war going on and we (along with a lot of the "Developed" world) are losing badly

mdpontin
mdpontin  106016 forum posts Scotland
21 Nov 2012 - 2:05 PM

Seems to me that a key responsibility of government, primarily through the office of Chancellor of the Exchequer, is to use the opportunities and resources presented by the good times to plan and provide for the bad times. Gordon Brown had one of the best periods of "good" economic conditions in recent years, yet doesn't appear to have made good use of it. Perhaps the tell-tale phrase which indicates his mindset is that about claiming to have "eliminated (Tory) boom and bust". If you think the sun is always going to shine on you, you're not likely to plan for rain.

Last Modified By mdpontin at 21 Nov 2012 - 2:07 PM
thewilliam
21 Nov 2012 - 2:37 PM

The Tulip bubble would have seemed a good idea at the time because plenty of folk were making money from it. People didn't see sense until the music stopped and those holding tulips had their fingers burned.

Is this any different from the art market we have today. A Van Gogh paintings that were reluctantly accepted in exchange for a meal now change hands for tens of millions. When will this bubble burst?

Much of the blame for the current pension mess can be laid at GB's door. He changed the tax regime so that pension funds that were running with a healthy surplus suddenly moved into deficit.

strawman
strawman  1022010 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
21 Nov 2012 - 2:58 PM

Chris my point was borrowing was rising when he was chancellor in good times when borrowing should be falling so he made the following dip worse.

mikehit
mikehit  56688 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
21 Nov 2012 - 3:28 PM


Quote: Is this any different from the art market we have today

Is no different from the art market or modern financial markets (derivatives, securitised loans that were anything but to do with 'security' etc) - all of them run on the same principles.

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