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APS-C versus Full Frame

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GlennH
GlennH  91918 forum posts France1 Constructive Critique Points
16 Mar 2013 - 8:53 AM


Quote: The best camera for the Job is the one you have in your hand Smile

Indeed, and any camera is better than none. But there's no point in pretending they'll all yield the same results. For those that like the arty-farty shallow DOF look, a full-frame camera helps to accentuate it. Choosing a format based on ultimate image quality is superficial, for most of our purposes. Selecting a camera for its function makes more sense, but no format precludes the possibility of a good picture.

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Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139461 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
16 Mar 2013 - 10:53 AM


Quote: For those that like the arty-farty shallow DOF look, a full-frame camera

Medium format will beat 35mm-format................ and Large Format will beat Medium Format, as regards the ability to get shallow DoF.

MFaria
MFaria  1 Portugal
16 Mar 2013 - 11:28 AM

The main purpose of this topic was to know about image quality diferences between ff and crop formats. Image quality, sharpness, contrast, colour rendition, etc... DOF, being an important factor in photography, of course, is not about image quality!
I would apreciate if anyone of you could show here two identical images using ff and crop cameras. That would be very interesting!!! Is it possible?

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139461 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
16 Mar 2013 - 11:29 AM


Quote: I would apreciate if anyone of you could show here two identical images using ff and crop cameras

It would be meaningless.

ChrisV
ChrisV  7786 forum posts United Kingdom26 Constructive Critique Points
16 Mar 2013 - 12:36 PM


Quote: The main purpose of this topic was to know about image quality diferences between ff and crop formats. Image quality, sharpness, contrast, colour rendition, etc... DOF, being an important factor in photography, of course, is not about image quality!
I would apreciate if anyone of you could show here two identical images using ff and crop cameras. That would be very interesting!!! Is it possible?

If you look at dpreview's full reviews they have a studio scene that's always shot from the same position at all sensitivity settings (in full stops and their maximum/minimums). In tests of recent years there's also the comparison tool so that you can look at identical 100% crops of all the cameras they've tested. I don't think there would be much surprise which models come out as the best performers at higher sensitivities, but you can also judge for yourself which are yielding most detail at base ISO. There are resolution figures to help with this if your eyes need a bit of help...

Ultimately it will depend on your own individual shooting style and needs (and the depth of your pocket) which camera will suit you. This may of course vary from task to task. If there was a perfect camera/format in existence, pretty soon all the others would vanish.

There may well come a time when m4/3 becomes a dominant format. Mp3 (or similarly compressed equivalents) have taken over in recorded music. The balance of convenience and sufficiency of quality hit a sweet spot for the majority of users. I'm not aware of any of them that attest that the quality of these are better or as good as uncompressed formats. That would be just plain silly, wouldn't it?

MFaria
MFaria  1 Portugal
16 Mar 2013 - 2:53 PM

Yes, Chris. I agree with you. We must consider the ballance of all the variables included in this equation. It's not that easy saying that (at least for, and I'm a begginer) for me ff is better than crop, and I'll get better shots with one against the other...
One thing is true for sure: to get good glass!
Thank's to all.

Steppenwolf
16 Mar 2013 - 3:40 PM


Quote: The main purpose of this topic was to know about image quality diferences between ff and crop formats. Image quality, sharpness, contrast, colour rendition, etc... DOF, being an important factor in photography, of course, is not about image quality!


DOF does affect image quality if you find that the bit of the subject that you focused on isn't in focus - because the DOF is shallower than the AF accuracy.

Unless you have a specific reason for buying FF (i.e. you want shallow DOF for studio work or you want very low noise characteristics at high ISO) you're better off getting a smaller sensor camera - they're much more forgiving of less than optimal camera settings. You're not going to see any difference in IQ.


Quote: Mp3 (or similarly compressed equivalents) have taken over in recorded music.

I guess that's because modern popular music is mostly listened to through very poor systems - or just headphones. If you play MP3 through a decent system it's dire.

Last Modified By Steppenwolf at 16 Mar 2013 - 3:41 PM
mikehit
mikehit  56480 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
16 Mar 2013 - 4:47 PM


Quote: The main purpose of this topic was to know about image quality diferences between ff and crop formats. Image quality, sharpness, contrast, colour rendition, etc... DOF, being an important factor in photography, of course, is not about image quality!
I would apreciate if anyone of you could show here two identical images using ff and crop cameras. That would be very interesting!!! Is it possible?

Here is a site that compares just that:
DOF using the same lens on DX/FX from the same position, cropping FX to the same FOV
DOF using the same lens, but moving to get same FOV
DOF from the same position using different lenses for same FOV
In the first on, DOF is the same. In the others, it varies because of the variables used.

http://www.jimgamblin.com/blog/?p=209

mikehit
mikehit  56480 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
16 Mar 2013 - 4:53 PM


Quote:
However, that's not the way you normally use a camera. You tend to choose the lens focal length to frame the shot as you require (as far as possible), so the FF camera will need a lens with a 50% (roughly) longer lens than the DX. Longer focal length lenses have a shallower DOF. FF cameras are better at isolating the subject - which can be an advantage or not. To get the smaller sensor camera to achieve the same DOF you'd need a larger aperture and large aperture lenses can be expensive.

It is definitely how you use the camera/ lens for wildlife. I can't afford a 600mmm f4L lens, nor do I want to get too close to a grizzly bear so I have to shoot from a fixed position (far enough not to get eaten) and whether I put my 400mm lens on a APS-C or 35mm sensor the image will need cropping. It is not that uncommon either - if you think of the number of shots taken of birds, foxes, badgers and a host of smaller wildlife and more often or not they are cropped because of the limitation imposed by distance and cost of lens.

keith selmes
16 Mar 2013 - 5:12 PM


Quote: modern popular music is mostly listened to through very poor systems

All recorded music always has been mostly listened to through very poor systems. MP3 is the best I've ever had, I expect that's true for most people.

keith selmes
16 Mar 2013 - 5:23 PM


Quote: a sweet spot for the majority of users

That to me places M4/3 pretty well. For a casual family day out sort of thing, I find a GH1 with a 14-45 zoom is much more versatile and useful than a truly compact compact, but much less heavy, obtrusive and all round awkward than full size DSLR. I can pocket a second lens too, without adding too much complication.
So this format is probably the only thing most people need. Bearing in mind they probably already have a camera phone in place of a really small compact.

The one bad thing, I don't know what other M4/3 models are like, I find the ergonomics pretty bad. All the teeny buttons and things, could do with a few less, and/or some serious design inspiration.

(I have often said the EVF isn't good enough, but for this kind of general usage it's fine)

Paul Morgan
Paul Morgan e2 Member 1315388 forum postsPaul Morgan vcard England6 Constructive Critique Points
16 Mar 2013 - 7:39 PM


Quote: It would be meaningless

No its not Smile


Quote: I would apreciate if anyone of you could show here two identical images using ff and crop cameras. That would be very interesting!!! Is it possible?

There are a couple examples here at the bottom of the page, the differences are quite obvious, and I know which image I would prefer.

http://betterfamilyphotos.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/olympus-om-d-first-impressions-...


Quote: The one bad thing, I don't know what other M4/3 models are like, I find the ergonomics pretty bad. All the teeny buttons and things, could do with a few less, and/or some serious design inspiration

So nice to see I`m bot on my own here Smile

I`ve got a G2 and its similar build and design as the GH1, and I find it just horrible Smile

I`ve just picked up a GF2 and its just so much better, no evf but I`m given the choice of adding one or adding an optical viewfinder if need be, and fitted with the 14mm pancake, its smaller than a lot of compacts.

All I wanted was the Pany 14mm lens, but found a deal for the body and lens for 169, it was just silly to refuse Smile

Last Modified By Paul Morgan at 16 Mar 2013 - 7:40 PM
Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139461 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
16 Mar 2013 - 8:47 PM

Actually, I don't think the OP is really interested in the DoF aspects. He seems to think the quality difference between FF and crop can be easily demonstrated.

It can't. So there's not a lot of point showing him images with shallow DoF.

Paul Morgan
Paul Morgan e2 Member 1315388 forum postsPaul Morgan vcard England6 Constructive Critique Points
16 Mar 2013 - 8:52 PM

He was talking about sharpness, not a good reason to upgrade anyway Smile

Sooty_1
Sooty_1 Critique Team 41207 forum posts United Kingdom198 Constructive Critique Points
16 Mar 2013 - 11:01 PM


Quote: If you use the same lens on each camera then the only way that you can get the same AOV from the larger sensor camera is to crop the photo - at which point you're effectively using a crop sensor camera so it's pretty obvious that the DOF will be the same.


It's not obvious, as evidenced by a large number of people on here who still think that a FF sensor will give a different depth of field to a DX one. There is no inherent difference, just changes to the set of parameters we use to produce the final image which will change the calculation.
In the same way, there are people who still believe that changing the focal length will change the perspective of an image (when shot from the same spot).

As in a lot of threads about this subject, there are a lot of factors to take into account regarding sharpness (and how to best achieve it), before you get to the difference in sensors.

Nick

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