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Are most of us born to act like sheep or are we being brainwashed?

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lemmy
lemmy  71940 forum posts United Kingdom
14 Apr 2013 - 3:05 PM


Quote: fair number of us are born to act like sheep

Seriously, that makes the assumption that a person acts in the same way always. People act like sheep in some situations and not in others.

What is also interesting is that in so many replies there are is the assumption of superiority - other people behave like sheep but they do not. We've all met people who say things like, ' I don't suffer fools gladly'. But they never think that they themselves might seem a fool to others. Reading recently about a woman giving advice on how to avoid sitting next to a bore at a dinner party. The possibility that she might be the bore everyone is trying to avoid never seems to occur to her.

Press and media are not all liars. Advertising performs a useful and necessary service in a consumer society like most of the modern world. PR is not lying, it is presenting things in the most advantageous way. Yes, some times these things are done in a way that many of us disapprove of but that doesn't make them all bad. Similarly, religious people come in for a lot of stick and name calling, fashionable at the moment. I'm a life long atheist but I have worked in awful places in the world, places with little hope and much despair. I've met Christians there who in the service of the god in whom they believe do great service to others. Are all Christians really brainwashed sheep?

I agree with brian1208 - most people need to belong to a group. Making yourself part of a group can be a strong strategy for survival. Sheep follow herd instinct and are alive and well all over the world in their millions. The Siberian tiger, on the other hand is a fiercely independent lone animal - on the endangered species list.

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14 Apr 2013 - 3:05 PM

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gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102293 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
14 Apr 2013 - 3:08 PM


Quote: Thereís a brilliant Adam Curtis documentary called The Century of the Self which describes the shocking role Edward Bernays played in the development of modern advertising and public relations. I say shocking because itís almost impossible to imagine what the world would have been like without him and Freud Ė†and yet even Freudís work isnít all that well known (other than his far-out and sexist psychosexual stuff). And no-oneís even heard of Bernays.

You should try to find it on DVD, gcarth. It has the dramatic urgency that you seem to require, but itís also well laid out, riveting, and immensely convincing.

Yes, I saw that on TV some time ago but I'm not sure it's easily available on DVD now - but thanks, I'll check it out again on Amazon because I would like very much to have a DVD of that documentary.
It was the 'Century of the Self' documentary where I first became aware of his enormous influence on society - and because of the recent hoo-ha about Thatcher and all this nonsense about the success(?) of the Free Market, I decided to re-visit this man's 'contribution' to society.

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102293 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
14 Apr 2013 - 3:27 PM


Quote: Seriously, that makes the assumption that a person acts in the same way always. People act like sheep in some situations and not in others.


Good point - can't disagree, Lemmy.

I think you make some excellent points - you certainly don't seem to be a sheep! Wink

Quote: I agree with brian1208 - most people need to belong to a group. Making yourself part of a group can be a strong strategy for survival. Sheep follow herd instinct and are alive and well all over the world in their millions. The Siberian tiger, on the other hand is a fiercely independent lone animal - on the endangered species list.

As to your point: Are Christians brainwashed sheep? - even though they often do great service to mankind - is interesting because we could equally say atheists - and I'm one - can be like sheep if they follow Dawkins et al without question, for instance.
I don't really disagree with anything you say above but I think what I'm really concerned with is the calculated, systematic and ubiquitous use of propaganda - particularly by the state...

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102293 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
14 Apr 2013 - 4:43 PM


Quote: Nah - I may live in Yorkshire, but I'm not from there.... so sheep run off Wink

They don't run away from me - Do they recognise me as one of them? They're harmless things but I always remember as I was huddled up near a wall at Goathland aka Aidensfield in 'Heartbeat' country: My pal and I were eating our sandwiches and this woolly blighter came over and tried to steal them! SadGrin

Quote: "Group Think"

Yes interesting website - I'll go back to that to read it again in more detail: Thanks for that link, Brian.

Last Modified By gcarth at 14 Apr 2013 - 4:45 PM
lemmy
lemmy  71940 forum posts United Kingdom
14 Apr 2013 - 5:34 PM


Quote: but I think what I'm really concerned with is the calculated, systematic and ubiquitous use of propaganda - particularly by the state.

I'm with you 100% on that. It sounds childish but so much stuff is coming out now about the British and their record of brutality during the empire, our connections with torture and so on which really upsets me. I was brought up to believe that we were somehow different and better than others. I now know that, while no worse, we were no better. So much history I was taught was propaganda and it makes me feel duped, treated like an idiot.

More recently, the Iraq war, of course.

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102293 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
14 Apr 2013 - 6:17 PM


Quote: I'm with you 100% on that. It sounds childish but so much stuff is coming out now about the British and their record of brutality during the empire, our connections with torture and so on which really upsets me. I was brought up to believe that we were somehow different and better than others. I now know that, while no worse, we were no better. So much history I was taught was propaganda and it makes me feel duped, treated like an idiot.

More recently, the Iraq war, of course.

Absolutely agree. We've been brainwashed to believe that 'Johnny foreigner' isn't quite as decent as us and can't be trusted.
As you say, we in the West are no worse nor better - not in any easily measurable way: On the one hand you have the lunatic Islamist fundamentalists who treat women and gays as second class citizens and some of these fundamentalists also have a penchant for cutting off people's heads and killing innocents with suicide bombs.
On the other hand you have the West bombing and killing hundreds of thousands of innocents in Iraq, etc. and blasting children to pieces with cluster bombs and yet we are expected to overlook this 'collateral damage'. A plague on both your houses, I say...
I have to say though, that in terms of numbers, the West must be responsible for killing many many more innocents in the Middle East than Mid East terrorists have killed Western innocents.
Like you, I didn't have a clue just how brainwashed I'd been, even up to middle age: I was ignorant of what was going on in Indonesia and East Timor, not to mention Latin America and Haiti.
Now we see that the West, led by the US, deliberately stirred up warfare in all these areas in order to gain strategic and economic power. Such is the power of propaganda...

lawbert
lawbert  71720 forum posts England15 Constructive Critique Points
14 Apr 2013 - 6:35 PM

Mint SauceTongueWink

Ade_Osman
Ade_Osman e2 Member 114521 forum postsAde_Osman vcard England36 Constructive Critique Points
14 Apr 2013 - 7:18 PM


Quote: Are most of us born to act like sheep

Only if I'm naked with the exception of my wellies Wink

answersonapostcard
answersonapostcard Site Moderator 1012609 forum postsanswersonapostcard vcard United Kingdom15 Constructive Critique Points
14 Apr 2013 - 7:30 PM

eewwwwe Wink

mikehit
mikehit  56687 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
14 Apr 2013 - 9:04 PM


Quote: Are most of us born to act like sheep or are we being brainwashed?

The answer to that one is 'yes'. Activites like advertising, marketing, politics and illusionists manipulate basic human fallibilities to acheive their aims and there are loads of books on this which describe how it works. The remarkable thing is that you can continue to fool people even when you tell them what is happening. You cannot guarantee that a specific person will react in a certain way, and you cannot guarantee any one person will act the same way each time.

But as usual, the title of your thread and the actual point of the thread don't quite match Tongue

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110366 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
14 Apr 2013 - 9:14 PM


Quote: But as usual, the title of your thread and the actual point of the thread don't quite match

But surely, that's the best way to deceive us sheep - baaaa! Wink

ianrobinson
ianrobinson e2 Member 41108 forum postsianrobinson vcard United Kingdom8 Constructive Critique Points
14 Apr 2013 - 9:57 PM

I wear wellies, bah Wink.
Oh but i don't come from wales, only joking, love the welsh really and jealous of there landscapes Tongue.

Last Modified By ianrobinson at 14 Apr 2013 - 9:58 PM
gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102293 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
15 Apr 2013 - 7:33 AM


Quote: The answer to that one is 'yes'.

Err...There are two options in my question: Do you mean "yes" we are born to act like sheep or do you mean yes we are brainwashed?

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102293 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
15 Apr 2013 - 7:36 AM


Quote: But as usual, the title of your thread and the actual point of the thread don't quite match Tongue

Am I missing something here? I haven't a clue what you're saying.
The point of my thread is to debate if people are mostly born to act like sheep or if they have been conditioned to think like sheep by our rulers through propaganda.
I'm talking about propaganda and surely you can see the connection between that and people acting like sheep.

Last Modified By gcarth at 15 Apr 2013 - 7:41 AM
mikehit
mikehit  56687 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
15 Apr 2013 - 8:33 AM


Quote: The answer to that one is 'yes'.Err...There are two options in my question: Do you mean "yes" we are born to act like sheep or do you mean yes we are brainwashed?

We are born to act like sheep in that when someone assumes control there is part of the human psyche that subsumes decision making to that person. You only need to look at structure of larger societies to realise that it could not possibly function without this. Smaller societies typical of hunter gatherers work far more on consensus and recognition of ability (best places to hunt, best techniques etc) but that level of rust takes a long time develop.
As for being brainwashed, yes we can be and marketing, politics and illusionists rely on it. But being brainwashed (like it or not) requires some level of complicity - to link back into one of your previous threads, you can claim that we are brainwashed by the high proportion of 'right of centre' press but the fact is people choose to buy the right of centre press in preference to left of centre press. Complicity. Unfortunately it is increasingly clear that the internet is making things worse not better: people are far more able to find and limit themselves to content that matches their own limited world view and totally avoid anything that contradicts it. And cod-scientific websites like the 9/11 conspiracies or the MMR controversy can put totally spurious evidence forward and create unwarranted panic.

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