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p12owe
p12owe  1101 forum posts United Kingdom2 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 9:08 AM


Quote: I don't believe I have ever seen someone being rude on this site. Maybe my skin is thicker. So far, this has been the most helpful site of them all.

I agree, I think that what we are really talking about is a very small minority anyway. From my point of view it is not blunt rudeness (that would be easy to police). It is far more subtle... it's little put downs, veiled insults, being dismissive of someones efforts or anyone else daring to say something nice. All of this, often done under the ruse of "helping" someone. The result if you do not posess a particularly thick skin is actually discouragement.

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19 Feb 2013 - 9:08 AM

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Fogey
Fogey  168 forum posts United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 9:10 AM


Quote: Thanks Fogey, i get you . surely more explanation would help those begining in the world of photography .. as you say im prepared to learn which is why im here.. im done with the groups of oohh arr and cliches , but surely dont Question someones equiptment as you have no idea what financial status you have or your ability ..

I agree regarding your comment about equipment. It is important to know what sort of equipment an author who has put up a photo for critique is using, in order to give valid feedback. However, basic mistakes, which we all make when we start out, is relevant irrespective of the kit we use.

Any unkind comment I have received such as you describe has never been taken lying down. I will always pounce on the poster, take him/her to task and point out that I want constructive criticism, not ridicule. You'll find that these sorts of remarks soon fade into the background once people know you are not a shrinking violet.

Robinsons
Robinsons  1 United Kingdom
19 Feb 2013 - 9:29 AM

Indeed the chap i speak of is commenting in general gallery , when you go to his profile he tells you about his tuition and his fees and that he hates cats..i thank you all for your insights into this and i think my skin maybe leathering up as we speak .. you then notice that he is using 1D mkiv and 600mm L lens for his shots and comparing yours with those ..im affraid this type of advertising stinks and if he is a tutor the surely he should learn that encouragement is often more effective. im not only speaking of the treatment i have received ,this chap just wades in and stops all voting and commenting on many shots whether they are in critic or not..Smile

KevSB
KevSB  101403 forum posts United Kingdom5 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 9:39 AM

I took a look at the persons comment on your picture, And felt it was quite constructive, Ive not seen all his comments but this one looks fair and trying to be helpful!

Last Modified By KevSB at 19 Feb 2013 - 9:44 AM
dcash29
dcash29  81887 forum posts England
19 Feb 2013 - 9:41 AM

The site is in danger of becoming a crèche.
If anyone thinks a photo is rubbish then say it. Although explain the comment, or even better how to improve it.
I hate it when people say how wonderful things are when they're not.
Anyone just criticising due to the equipment is just a ***k.

Last Modified By dcash29 at 19 Feb 2013 - 9:43 AM
p12owe
p12owe  1101 forum posts United Kingdom2 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 9:52 AM


Quote: I agree with Colly, the site is in danger of becoming a crèche.
If anyone thinks a photo is rubbish then say it. Although explain the comment, or even better how to improve it.
I hate it when people say how wonderful things are when there are not.
Anyone just criticising due to the equipment is just a ***k.

Sorry I have to disagree... surely this is what the critique gallery is for....

My Dad always used to say "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all!" I think in the general gallery, where people of all abilities post for many different reasons, this would be a much more friendly phillosophy.

mikehit
mikehit  46102 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 10:05 AM


Quote: I took a look at the persons comment on your picture, And felt it was quite constructive, Ive not seen all his comments but this one looks fair and trying to be helpful!

I think it is reasonable comment as well - I didn't get the idea that he was comparing your image with his. The obvious follow-up would be how to get a sharper image: higher MP camera? longer lens? get closer to reduce cropping? use a tripod? use flash to shorten shutter speed? Whether the poster should have volunteered these or whether you could (should?) have followed up to ask advice is a topic on its own. On some occasions I will offer such advice, on others I will leave it open depending on my mood, my time available and how I gauge the person who posted the image.
A thickskin is definitely needed at times - not so much to ride the insults (which are few and far between on the site IMO) but so as not to take comments the wrong way.

Coleslaw
Coleslaw e2 Member 813402 forum postsColeslaw vcard Wales28 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 10:18 AM


Quote: also would have expected greater clarity from a 5mk2

Nothing wrong with comment about the camera you used.

Quote: Oh i wish i had the money for a 600mm lens

This is your own comment, not someone else.

Quote: Sorry I have to disagree... surely this is what the critique gallery is for....

This is the issue with critique gallery, some people think you can only critique in that particular gallery and not everywhere else.

Quote: If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all!

So, what you want really is: nice shot! Wink

MalcolmS
MalcolmS e2 Member 81061 forum postsMalcolmS vcard England13 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 10:20 AM

Like text and e-mails, this form of communication is the worst for getting across a message as meant. It's too open to misinterpretation and as a result people often become upset becuase they have read a meaning into a comment that isn't there. I have been on this site for a good many years and the number of outright insulting comments have been few and far between, most occurrring in the forums and usually dealt with by the moderators.
It has been amusing to see how many perpetrators of insulting comments have, when challenged 'taken their bat home' and left the site. Just shows in my opinion that these people can often give it out but can't take it.
In my experience, if you get a comment that you find insulting, read it a few times and see if there are other ways of reading it or just ignore it. Personally I take what I want from any comment as even the insulting ones sometimes do have a point, it's just that those writing them have no way of getting their point across without being blunt.
That having been said there are some wind-up merchants on here, but as has been said before they are known for it and people tend to take whay they say with a huge pinch of salt.

Last Modified By MalcolmS at 19 Feb 2013 - 10:22 AM
Fogey
Fogey  168 forum posts United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 10:36 AM


Quote:

Sorry I have to disagree... surely this is what the critique gallery is for....

My Dad always used to say "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all!" I think in the general gallery, where people of all abilities post for many different reasons, this would be a much more friendly phillosophy.

Then surely the poster should state that the photograph is for sharing and general discussion and not critique.

Pete
Pete Site Moderator 1318430 forum postsPete vcard ePz Advertiser England96 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 10:36 AM

I've looked at the person in question's recent comments. The comments are all going against the grain so are bound to wind people up. But they are honest appraisals of shots. And all are fair. We are always in the danger of creating a fluffy "everything is wonderful" view of photography. That's fine for those who just want to pat each other on the back for everything, but is useless for those who want to learn and become much better photographers. The guys comments are short and to the point, but at least it's a step in the right direction of a more honest comment. If you don't like what's said you can choose to ignore it. While others can look, take what's said and improve next time. This is not belittling - it's being real. Both have their place on the site. "nice pic" is encouraging (if the pic is nice) and "it should be sharper considering the shutter speed used" should make you think "have I got issues with focusing, hand holding, lens quality technique etc".

Watch Britains Got Talent. See all the people turn up who cant sing or dance or perform. Look at their faces of disbelief when the audience boo and the judges say that was rubbish. That can happen here when a photo gets 100 votes and then someone who has the expertise thinks I have to say something. In the case of Britains Got Talent all the entrant's family and friends have been saying the equivalent of "nice pic".

There are many kinds of photographer using ePHOTOzine and what we hope to achieve is a place where the many types can coexists. The problem occurs when the two extremes cross and then there's occasional conflict. We can usually resolve it but as in a recent case (and we get one or two per year) resolution is impossible due to mind set of members. So we have to step in heavy handed and we usually lose one. This has happened twice in the last month, but is rare, and considering we have over one million people through the door each month I think we're lucky.

Last Modified By Pete at 19 Feb 2013 - 10:39 AM
janeez
janeez e2 Member 51161 forum postsjaneez vcard United Kingdom8 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 10:55 AM

"If you can't say something nice then say something silly"

My hubby's philosophy Smile

mikehit
mikehit  46102 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 11:47 AM

A good summary of a sensitive subject, Pete.


Quote: considering we have over one million people through the door each month I think we're lucky.

You are too modest. You make your own luck and a lot of kudos to the mod team for the work they do in developing a good atmosphere on the site.

teocali
teocali e2 Member 6212 forum poststeocali vcard England18 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 11:58 AM


Quote: If somebody uploads an image, purely to get 'Ooh! That's nice'; 'Nice one'; 'Like that'; then they should make everybody aware that the photograph is showcased only and not for comments or critiques. I would guarantee that that person would not progress, however.

Surely, by posting an image on a site such as this, we want a number of things. First to share our photographs, get some honest feedback, and learn from our mistakes and other peoples' experiences.

Personally, I have learned a huge amount about photography from forums such as this from more experienced toggers, been inspired by those same people, and have emulated what I have seen and been impressed by.

In order to get this far I have undergone some pretty harsh comments on my efforts, but as long as it's constructive and ultimately betters my photography, I'm prepared to learn.

I was told very early on the film isn't the first thing you learn to develop, but a thick skin.

Perfectly put - I couldn't agree more Smile

Sooty_1
Sooty_1 Critique Team 41173 forum posts United Kingdom196 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 12:06 PM

The ideal solution is for posters to say they don't want critique when they post pictures, but then it begs the question why they are posting in the first place, as there are usually so many posts in the gallery that their picture disappears off the radar very quickly. I don't have time to trawl through all pictures posted and comment on them, so I restrict my commenting to the critique gallery where I think it will help.

As for forum posts, then I don't argue about something if I think I might be wrong, or I'll go and research it well first (I don't trust wiki for a qualified answer, for instance). A few will still push an opinion, even in the face of overwhelming opposition. In my defence, I have been doing this for a very long time and have a lot of experience, so I'm not just being bloody-minded. Unfortunately, that's not so true of some, who use wiki or a single site as an authority to pontificate about something they believe in.

I think that if someone takes the trouble to comment on my pics, then at least they've made the effort to look and anyway, I can decide whether to ignore it or not: ie. If I want help, I'll ask for it.

One thing that people do need to remember though, is that I don't need to have an outstanding portfolio to have an opinion, and nor does anyone else. Just because my portfolio doesn't contain any images, it doesn't mean I don't know how to do something, or I haven't shot it before or I'm not good at it.

I think the mods do a pretty good job, after all, it's a big site and they can't always nip everything in the bud immediately it starts, but then sometimes its good to let people air their views and argue. Not only is it entertaining, often illuminating and usually funny, as long as we don't let it get to us too much. A moderate dose of "man the hell up" is usually required by some of the participants.

Unfortunately, life is full of conflicts and competition and to deny it is near-sighted. We need to be able to roll with it and not get so upset sometimes.

Nick

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