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Jestertheclown
19 Feb 2013 - 12:13 PM


Quote: The ideal solution is for posters to say they don't want critique when they post pictures,

You'd need a button on the upload page, a kind of opt-out switch, which, when pressed places a banner below the uploaded image reading "just say something nice."

Otherwise, it will get overlooked.

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19 Feb 2013 - 12:13 PM

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Pete
Pete Site Moderator 1318446 forum postsPete vcard ePz Advertiser England96 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 12:34 PM


Quote: The ideal solution is for posters to say they don't want critique when they post pictures, but then it begs the question why they are posting in the first place, as there are usually so many posts in the gallery that their picture disappears off the radar very quickly. I don't have time to trawl through all pictures posted and comment on them, so I restrict my commenting to the critique gallery where I think it will help.

A long time ago in the distant past, pre critique gallery, a forum topic was posted of this nature. We had a 15 or so page debate about all the stuff being said here. And it was probably the umpteenth time the same topic had been covered.

One of the suggestions was to "ask posters to say they don't want critique when they post pictures".
This was shot down because a lot of people do like critique but they like it done in a more friendly way. It's a fact of life that some people can take harsh critique or blunt critique, others need a different approach. Books have been written on how to deliver feedback. the famous "s**t sandwich etc. So after this particular debate we came up with the idea of the critique gallery

This is where people have said - give me critique. Again it needs to be done constructively so we created the critique team...and in that team are a great set of people who devote their time to offering helpful critique.

We also created the nominate as good critique award and medals for such, So people could develop their critique skills and get a small acknowledgement for it.

The bottom line is post in this gallery if you definitely want (and can accept) feedback (it still shows in the main gallery) and comment in here if you want to be really critical of a photo, but keep it positive.

And as said above - if something is posted that you don't agree with send in a report, don't fight back we can then resolve.

ade_mcfade
ade_mcfade e2 Member 1014816 forum postsade_mcfade vcard England216 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 12:58 PM

used to learn more from a cutting one-liner pointing out a flaw than 100 fluffy comments

the sad thing for EPZ is that, from my experience, many of the more advanced/pro members tend to have less time to join in.

In my case, when I was in a job I'd have prelonged periods of "nothing to do", so could dedicate time to the Critique Team and hopefully help a lot of people.

Now I'm working for myself, I have a bit of time to pop in to the forums and usually get a shot uploaded most days, but never have time for the galleries any more. There are 1001 things on my to-do list which never happened before.

So...

I'd say that if you're getting genuine, honest critique from a professional photographer and trainer, you should be lapping it up and learning from it Smile

Its just a case of perception - you can choose to get upset, or choose to grow.

mcgannc
mcgannc  5389 forum posts England3 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 1:19 PM

An apporach we use in work is know as OEPS feedback (yes, another bloody acronym!). However, it is very effective and takes away the subjective/personal element. I'm not sure if it could be as effective when not face to face but you never know!

So what does OEPS stand for you ask...

O - Observation: What is the specific observation you have e.g. "I observed that, I noticed that...the darker areas of the shot are underexposed"
E - Effect: What is the effect of this e.g. "...therefore the effect it has is that it lacks some of the detail that would have been present had it been exposed correctly"
P - Pause/Probe: Give the receiver a minute to think (not really possible 'online') or Probe further e.g. "...I see no exif data has been uploaded, maybe if you provided this I could give more accurate feedback on your settings..."
S - Solution: Offer some ideas as to how the receiver could do things differently next time e.g. "...maybe if you utilise the exposure compensation settings it will allow you to get a better result...If you like, I could talk you through the process I follow...etc etc

It's difficult at first to follow this structure, however the more you use it, the more natural it becomes.

For the observation aspect, avoid using terminology such as - "I think", "I feel", "I'm assuming", and instead use - "I noticed that", "I saw", "I observed that". This makes it much more objective than subjective.

Ultimately, there is a saying I came across once that read - "The meaning of communication is the response it elicits" which sort of calls out that the same communication could in theory be received in many different ways...using the above would help limit a lot of misunderstandings, and remove the need for having to develop a thick skin if you're not that way inclined Smile

Hope that's helpful?

Chris

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110291 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 3:01 PM

If you are giving critique to be of use to the receiver use Chris's method, it works.

If you are giving critique to make yourself feel good (usually by belittling the receiver) follow the general style of many of the web "Experts" (some of whom appear here now and then but thankfully not very often)

One thing that does get up my nose a little is the "If they didn't want criticism they shouldn't have posted it here" approach to images posted in the open forum, particularly as we have the Critique Gallery where images are posted specifically to receive critique.


I've more or less stopped giving critique partly as an experiment to see the size of the "Click for Clique" effect (its a factor of between 3 - 5 by my estimations, maybe even greater) and partly because I have realised that the bulk of the contributors really don't want or understand critique when given

p12owe
p12owe  1101 forum posts United Kingdom2 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 3:15 PM

Well after all this, I'm afraid it still seems quite simple to me...

If it's in the main gallery, say something nice or just move on...
If it's in the critique gallery, take the gloves off but try to do it constructively.

That's not being fluffy, or treating anyone like a baby... It just keeps everything friendly, positive and encouraging for all of us less talented, less well endowed (camera equipment wise Tongue) amateurs
Smile

Coleslaw
Coleslaw e2 Member 913403 forum postsColeslaw vcard Wales28 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 3:55 PM

If you want something nice, stick the photos to facebook or similar.
SmileGrin

Last Modified By Coleslaw at 19 Feb 2013 - 3:55 PM
keithh
keithh e2 Member 1023045 forum postskeithh vcard Wallis and Futuna33 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 4:33 PM

To be honest, on the whole, you can say what you like........people will ignore negative comments and concentrate on the praise.

collywobles
19 Feb 2013 - 5:15 PM


Quote: If you want something nice, stick the photos to facebook or similar.

Thats all very well but if someone uploads a photo that is only worthy of Facebook then they cannot complain if the comments reflect that.

Robinsons
Robinsons  1 United Kingdom
19 Feb 2013 - 7:40 PM

I have just got back in ,this has been brilliant to read and ive learnt a lot about different views on this matter and wish to thank all that have contributed , i shall keep posting and take all of the comments given if any on board..Grin

StrayCat
StrayCat e2 Member 1014821 forum postsStrayCat vcard Canada2 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 8:44 PM


Quote: To be honest, on the whole, you can say what you like........people will ignore negative comments and concentrate on the praise.

You could be right there Keith. However, in my own case, if I get a negative comment, it sticks. If I think the comment is really justified, I will always remember it; and if a viable solution is also given, I will take it to heart. In fact, I think I can remember every negative comment I've received since joining.

Denny

Here is a comment that is a little off course; I have been checking out other sites, and working on a site of my own so that I can post more images. It has nothing to do with my feelings about the site, I just would like to post more photos, and know that they've been seen. I would also like to post some series of photos.

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110291 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 8:55 PM


Quote: people will ignore negative comments

there may be some truth in the thought, on the other hand people will also ignore negative comments if they feel that they not honestly given and don't help them to improve to get closer to what they are trying to achieve (and I do see that sort of negative comment a fair bit, you know the type, the ones that only tell you what is wrong with a shot )

StrayCat
StrayCat e2 Member 1014821 forum postsStrayCat vcard Canada2 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 8:57 PM

Or the ones who ridicule your shot because your camera model is so freaking popular.Wink

keithh
keithh e2 Member 1023045 forum postskeithh vcard Wallis and Futuna33 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 10:12 PM

Knowing what is wrong with an image is the path to getting right. There may be more than one way to do that.

Eviscera
Eviscera e2 Member 81104 forum postsEviscera vcard United Kingdom149 Constructive Critique Points
19 Feb 2013 - 10:23 PM

Very true Keith.

Whatever the "sandwich" may be , to leave encouragement and forward thinking is the art of critique.

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