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Cameron and the EU speech

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Reason: going nowhere because of FM
Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
23 Jan 2013 - 10:04 AM

I watched David Cameron’s speech in full this morning and although there is no sign now of the old ‘three-line-whip’ against a referendum, the content left a lot to be desired. His words were not convincing and to suggest a referendum in the first half of the next government is outrageous as it is unlikely that he will still be PM and therefore will not be able to grant it, whether or not he wants to. The frightening think about all this is that a Labour/UKIP coalition, the likely outcome if things continue, may still not cede a referendum either. Lib Dems will of course be in oblivion by then.

It is plain for all to see, although our PM wouldn’t admit to it in the few subsequent questions that he answered at the end of his missive, there is absolutely no way in any shape or form that the EU commissioners would agree to each and every one of his demands. These ‘negotiations’ will therefore inevitable lead to a referendum which he has promised to hold but there were no promised to honour the outcome of it at all.

Amongst his list of things to be negotiated there was no mention of doing away with the ‘two-centre headquarters, which cost us an absolute fortune every year and is indicative of the expensive union of which we are unfortunate enough to be members. Furthermore, there was no mention of the EU budget and the amount of wasted money that we contribute every year.

Since 1979 we have shelled out something like £240Billion with current membership around £16Billion rising to £19Billion by the next general election. These cost are actually higher by some 10% due to waste, fraud, misallocation of funds, the loss of British jobs to EU immigrants, swollen pension fund contributions and ever-growing expense allocations. In my opinion to remain in a Cameron changed EU under any circumstances with the same ever growing costs still has to be unthinkable so we may as well hold the referendum now.

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23 Jan 2013 - 10:04 AM

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adrian_w
adrian_w e2 Member 73370 forum postsadrian_w vcard Scotland4 Constructive Critique Points
23 Jan 2013 - 10:25 AM

Yawn.
I wondered how long it would be before the "little englander" backwoods men would surface.

mikehit
mikehit  56689 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
23 Jan 2013 - 10:36 AM

Are you seriously suggesting a UKIP/Labour coalition? LOL! After that gem surely any political analysis is questionable.

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
23 Jan 2013 - 11:21 AM


Quote: Are you seriously suggesting a UKIP/Labour coalition? LOL! After that gem surely any political analysis is questionable.

Well after Cameron's ascerbic comments about UKIP and its supporters, Nigel Farage (next PM???) has ruled out a coalition with the Tories, so who would be the likely partner given that the Lib Dems will be in obscurity by then?

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
23 Jan 2013 - 11:23 AM


Quote: I wondered how long it would be before the "little englander" backwoods men would surface.

'Little Englanders' you mean, the majority of this country wants a referendum, that is not in doubt, how they will vote may well be, but my guess that it will be Big Englanders by then.

Anyway judging by your avatar you wont be involved anyway as long as your Kit-E-Kat is always available.

Last Modified By Focus_Man at 23 Jan 2013 - 11:25 AM
strawman
strawman  1022010 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
23 Jan 2013 - 1:01 PM

What an idiot David Cameron is even entering the debate over whether we are in Europe. Oh well there goes future investment in the UK by lot of multi-national companies, and that will include companies we think of as British. The world is becoming increasingly global. Companies are now seldom defined by one country.

Face it you are looking at an old fashioned country the UK which used to be a bridge into Europe now deciding it may well be outside. So with all the trade problems that brings many companies will now be limiting their exposure to the “UK” problem. So new investment plans, hang on lets put them on ice or divert them to another European country. If UK stays inside its OK. If UK goes outside well they will still need to import so what the heck at least the rest of Europe will be a safe trade partner. We will be dragged back in time by UKIP and the far right conservatives who have stil not woken up to us no longer having an empire.

Have we learnt nothing as country after country has pointed out to the UK how stupid it is to leave the EU. Sweden looses a like minded country, even the USA say it is a bad move. The car companies and other related industries put factories in the UK because we were in Europe. Take that away and a lot will leave. The fact is Europe is changing, now we can either recognise this and get on with it and influence it, or we can sit outside and wonder why no one cares about our opinion and why the world has become a harder place for us.

Lets see we leave Europe, they put an import charge on our goods, so we sell less and lots of other countries rush to fill the market void.. What’s that I hear, oh yes we place an import tax on their goods well they will be fine with that, prices go up in the high street and we pay more, oh that is good. And we loose the sales value of export so GDP goes down….
The other stupid thing is it has made him impotent in debates in Europe now. No negotiating lever. He has played the last card and they will just cut him out. So even if we stay in we have less influence. His bolt is shot. It is incredibly stupid that he has listened to and been bullied by the anti-Europe crowd. Are there things wrong in Europe, oh yes they are, but lets lead in fixing them not be left out in the cold.

So in a move he is damaging the futue economy and lost negotiating stance in Europe. All they have to do is say "We are sorry we want the UK to participate but if they do not want to then they should go their own way". Cameron lost a lot of influence in Europe last year, he blew what was left today. A sad day for the country. The speach should have not mentioned a referendum. We cannot afford it.

Last Modified By strawman at 23 Jan 2013 - 1:04 PM
strawman
strawman  1022010 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
23 Jan 2013 - 1:08 PM

It has started already . Do not think for a moment big business will be worried about our country. It is our choice after all. There will be French politicians doing cartwheels over how stupid the referendum is.

Last Modified By strawman at 23 Jan 2013 - 1:09 PM
lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1014170 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
23 Jan 2013 - 1:09 PM


Quote: Nigel Farage (next PM???) has ruled out a coalition with the Tories, so who would be the likely partner given that the Lib Dems will be in obscurity by then?

Well first they would need to get enough votes to get some MPs in to parliament. Most likely all they would do is split the Conservative vote leading to liberal & Labour gains.

strawman
strawman  1022010 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
23 Jan 2013 - 1:11 PM

yes my hope is this situation splits the Conservative vote between them and UKIP. But sadly I cannot see a party to elect. May have to Vote Liberal. Cannot let Labour or Consrvatives get into power. Birgitte please come over here with your Moderate party. Forsake the Borgen, we need you. I would vote for you.

Last Modified By strawman at 23 Jan 2013 - 1:12 PM
mikehit
mikehit  56689 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
23 Jan 2013 - 1:13 PM

+1, Strawman.

mdpontin
mdpontin  106016 forum posts Scotland
23 Jan 2013 - 1:19 PM


Quote: Oh well there goes future investment in the UK by lot of multi-national companies, and that will include companies we think of as British. The world is becoming increasingly global. Companies are now seldom defined by one country.

Funny, I seem to recall that was the argument when the subject was whether or not Britain should join the Euro. Company spokesmen were trotted out to say that unless we joined, they'd be unlikely to invest in the UK, etc. Perhaps staying out did have some negative impact on inward investment, I don't know, but it wasn't the wholesale calamity we were led by some to believe it would be. On balance, it was arguably the right choice.


Quote: It is incredibly stupid that he has listened to and been bullied by the anti-Europe crowd.

Maybe those who you casually dismiss as the "anti-Europe crowd" have substantially more support in the UK than the mainstream media would have us believe. Also, they may not be "anti-Europe" at all, but feel that our current relationship with Europe is not in the best interests of the UK. Not everybody who thinks that is a "Little Englander", or some kind of xenophobic lunatic. And not all of them want us to leave the EU either.

strawman
strawman  1022010 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
23 Jan 2013 - 1:23 PM

Why the negotiation stance is weakened.


Quote: "You can't do Europe a la carte," Mr Fabius said, responding to the pledges. "I'll take an example which our British friends will understand. Let's imagine Europe is a football club and you join, but once you're in it you can't say let's play rugby."

In short everything David tries to negotiate on will be met with that response because he has blown his trumph card and brought up the referendum but nailled his desire to stay in the trade union. So what ca nhe offer. A decision to leave the EU if he gets elected again. It leaves the UK looking impotent.

strawman
strawman  1022010 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
23 Jan 2013 - 1:26 PM

As I said
Quote: Are there things wrong in Europe, oh yes they are, but lets lead in fixing them not be left out in the cold.

We need to have something to negotiate, not a threat deferred to possibly. I agree we need to change things in our relationship with Europe and also in how Europe works. But at every step so far David has reduced British influence. This is another one in my eyes. So my concern is the damage to our ability to negotiate. we should be building allies, not huffing in the corner. Birgitte would not have done this. In fact lets change the slogan from " I agree with Dave" to "What would Birgitte do?"

Last Modified By strawman at 23 Jan 2013 - 1:28 PM
Newdevonian
23 Jan 2013 - 1:29 PM


Quote: It has started already . Do not think for a moment big business will be worried about our country. It is our choice after all. There will be French politicians doing cartwheels over how stupid the referendum is.

Anyone who upsets the French gets my vote!

strawman
strawman  1022010 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
23 Jan 2013 - 1:30 PM

Yes but David will have delighted them. Good time to grab some foreign investment from the UK. The French will be happy with David.

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