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Cameron and the EU speech

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Reason: going nowhere because of FM
lawbert
lawbert  71713 forum posts England15 Constructive Critique Points
23 Jan 2013 - 9:34 PM

To many people doing the maths earning untold amounts...not enough creating the work and doing itWink

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23 Jan 2013 - 9:34 PM

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strawman
strawman  1022006 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
23 Jan 2013 - 10:39 PM

Taking the point to add some thought behind my views (welcome to hear other views as I doubt I understand all of this debate).
To my eyes the UK has missed an opportunity to play a bigger part in Europe. There is much about Europe that is wrong, but ironically the Conservatives are focusing in the wrong places. I would be working with other countries in Europe that have similar views as us to see if we could not come up with a much better system that was fair, but first we need to understand what the conservatives are objecting to.

The work time directive for example, what is this evil piece of legislation.

The abbreviated version. A worker has the right to
1) at least 11 hours not working in a 24 hour period.
2) 20 days holiday per year.
3) an average working week of less than 48 hours
4) a rest period for every 6 hours worked.
5) A 24 hour continuous period of not working per week
6) Some restrictions on how much night work can be performed.

Now is that some evil piece of legislation that enforces totally unreasonable restrictions on employers, or is it a reasonable requirement that is in the good interest of a healthy productive work force. In the UK an employee have the right to ignore the 48hrs per week limit. Small wonder that the UK is alone in objecting to this in Europe. Do people really think that is such a bad thing. I know the Victorians would rather have the common workers in the mill slaving away 7 days a week, but in the modern UK is it unreasonable??

And then there is the criminal justice legislation. Now this would make it easier for us to get people to the UK to face trial and for accused people in the UK to be sent to other countries within Europe to face trial. Is that a bad thing? Refusing to take part will make it harder to work together on cracking international crimes and terror rings plus make life harder for police forces and easier for criminals. I am having a hard time on this one.

what I can understand is a need for debate on financial and economic policies plus the various subsidies and of course the Euro. Now here the UK had a chance to act as a moderating voice against some countries (take Germany and France as examples) who are driving for even closer integration in Europe. I think the UK had a chance in the last year to work with some of the other countries (lets take Sweden as an example) and create a compelling case for a stable Europe with perhaps less of certain types of Brussels intervention. We could have worked on the how to create free trade within Europe and get the economise going again. Instead we went down this inward looking navel gazing lets keep the "not in my back yard" members of the Conservative party happy. In my eyes David blew the chance to shape economic policy in Europe to a more UK friendly form in order to posture and appease members of his party. Remember the day David came home because no one else in Europe would play with him? what does that say about the UK's standing? Are we that different? Or are we lacking the ability to see the other persons point of view.

Whether we like it or not, the Euro experiment sort of happened. there are countries stuck in that and can see no viable alternative. Now as it stands having the single currency without a Europe wide financial control is to no great surprise turning out to be a disaster for some. Germany benefits as its currency is kept artificially low, along with lending rates, so Germany is made artificially competitive. Countries like Italy, Spain, Greece, Turkey etc have an artificially high currency so some of the factors that would allow them to compete are nullified and so they effectively loose out to Germany. The net result is at various points Germany has to bail them out with cash (upsetting the Germans public), and this is going to keep on happening till they tart to fix things. There are two options I can see, a break up of the Euro (French and German pride will not allow that) so they will drive for more financial central co-ordination i.e the European Federal state. Now that could be a long term good thing, and we in the UK might loose out by not joining. Or we may not. Some will see it as Germany achieving what they failed to do in WW2 but by Economic means.

those things are happening, and the world of business is becoming ever more Global. The time of little UK standing on its own may well be behind us. Now are we better involved in the big development of Europe or standing outside the room moaning about those nasty people doing things we do not like. I think we could have been proactive, instead we have been reactive. So my fear, we the UK are arguing over the small points on a matter of principal and ignoring the big picture.

So my message to Cameron, stuff UKIP and the Conservative rumbling. You are the UK prime minister so get out there and represent us. Look after the countries long term future not your next couple of months in parliament. you have dithered on this speech for ages and well its a dithering output showing a lack of direction.

Perhaps I spend too much time working with people from other countries, but I see more to loose in the UK not being involved than to gain.

Last Modified By strawman at 23 Jan 2013 - 10:44 PM
Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
24 Jan 2013 - 8:52 AM


Quote: The rants on here are typical of the stuff we see from the politicians. Instead of getting on a high horse why dont you put your reasons for and against the EU. rs........

I don't need to yet. A referendum can go either way and at that time all points by all interested parties will be laid out before us in order to make an informed choice. At that time you will be able to make your own decision, the point is, so will everybody else so why be against it? It is a referendum not a demand.
Quote: So you don't think that an increase of 18pts is good? Well it equates to 3% per day and 112.5% increase in a year.

[quote] This is what I hate about referenda, you get millions of people who don't have a basic grasp of maths to make decisions on matters of great complexity.

Sorry a genuine error on my part but still 11.25% betters any other bank investment.
Quote:

[quote]Extrapolating one day's move on the FTSE, or anything similar, out over a year is plain ridiculous, it could easily go down tomorrow - more than wiping out the gain, would it be correct to then extrapolate that and panic at the impending crash?

Dear oh dear! and I thought you might have had a grasp of finance. The increase is a sign that businesses accept the idea of a referendum as a good one at this point in time. The rise and afll of the stock market on future days will be as a result of on-going financial matters.

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
24 Jan 2013 - 8:59 AM


Quote:
So my message to Cameron, stuff UKIP and the Conservative rumbling. You are the UK prime minister so get out there and represent us. Look after the countries long term future not your next couple of months in parliament. you have dithered on this speech for ages and well its a dithering output showing a lack of direction.

Perhaps I spend too much time working with people from other countries, but I see more to loose in the UK not being involved than to gain.

You are entitled to your opinion as is the rest of the electorate - hence the proposed referendum. (Promises ahve been broken before and Cameron may not win the next election) One thing is certain - Lib Dems will be wiped out.

However there are many thing you forgot to include in the hates including the cost at 14 Billion rising to 19 billion pa. Think what we could do with this cash without the interfering busy bodies who are unelected by us and who would wish to run our lives for us. How many soldiers would it pay for? How many policemen? How many nurses? etc

All will come out in the wash before any referendum when we can all make our own minds up.

Last Modified By Focus_Man at 24 Jan 2013 - 9:00 AM
mikehit
mikehit  56350 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
24 Jan 2013 - 9:15 AM


Quote: the cost at 14 Billion rising to 19 billion pa.

I understand that is how much we pay in. How much comes back our way?

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110248 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
24 Jan 2013 - 9:51 AM


Quote: I understand that is how much we pay in. How much comes back our way?


Quote: our net contribution to the Brussels budget, from 5.3 billion in 2009 to 9.2 billion in 2010

This set of bar graphs tells the story quite well

here

Last Modified By brian1208 at 24 Jan 2013 - 9:52 AM
cambirder
cambirder  107202 forum posts England
24 Jan 2013 - 10:00 AM


Quote: How many soldiers would it pay for?

Strange that this comes top of your list of alternative spending, I thought we were already spending billions on killing people don't think we need to spend any more in that department.


Quote: All will come out in the wash before any referendum when we can all make our own minds up.

I doubt it very much the agenda will undoubtedly be full of emotive bullshit, much of which will be directed by outside parties such as Rupert Murdock so the vast majority of the British people (which might exclude Scots by the time it comes around) will enter the ballot box in a blissful state of ignorance of the consequence of the final outcome.

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
24 Jan 2013 - 10:31 AM


Quote: How many soldiers would it pay for?
Strange that this comes top of your list of alternative spending, I thought we were already spending billions on killing people don't think we need to spend any more in that department.

Not in killing people but in the defence of our realm including properties like the Falkland Islands. It wasn't top of my list by priority, just part of a small list.


Quote: All will come out in the wash before any referendum when we can all make our own minds up. I doubt it very much the agenda will undoubtedly be full of emotive bullshit, much of which will be directed by outside parties such as Rupert Murdock so the vast majority of the British people (which might exclude Scots by the time it comes around) will enter the ballot box in a blissful state of ignorance of the consequence of the final outcome.

You might be in a blissful state of ignorance but the general electorate will not. Still if you believe that you will be ignorant, pay more attention to the debate.

Last Modified By Focus_Man at 24 Jan 2013 - 10:34 AM
mikehit
mikehit  56350 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
24 Jan 2013 - 10:50 AM


Quote: You might be in a blissful state of ignorance but the general electorate will not. Still if you believe that you will be ignorant, pay more attention to the debate.

So far in topics that turn to the EU, you happily quote the amount we send to the EU and ignore the amount we get back (because that would reduce your argument against EU), you have blamed EU for laws that others have ponited out are derived from UK and not EU, and have blamed the EU Human Rights court for rulings that we in fact made by British courts.
I think that succinctly demonstrates Cambirder's comment that the vast majority of the electorate are in fact ignorant of the key issues, having been fed misinformation by the various interested parties and run on emotion rather than fact (or supportable hypothesis).

cambirder
cambirder  107202 forum posts England
24 Jan 2013 - 10:58 AM


Quote: You might be in a blissful state of ignorance but the general electorate will not. Still if you believe that you will be ignorant, pay more attention to the debate.

If you honestly think the majority are going to be fully informed you have a much higher expectation of the general populace than I do. I can't see the staggering levels of ignorance in political and economic matters being raised by significant amounts over the next few years, so many wont even bother to vote and many who do will be voting on gut instinct.

mattw
mattw  105189 forum posts United Kingdom10 Constructive Critique Points
24 Jan 2013 - 11:30 AM


Quote:
You might be in a blissful state of ignorance but the general electorate will not. Still if you believe that you will be ignorant, pay more attention to the debate.

Hmmm, sensible debate on the issues at hand did not really occur the last time we had a referendum.

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
24 Jan 2013 - 11:42 AM


Quote: So far in topics that turn to the EU, you happily quote the amount we send to the EU and ignore the amount we get back (because that would reduce your argument against EU), you have blamed EU for laws that others have ponited out are derived from UK and not EU, and have blamed the EU Human Rights court for rulings that we in fact made by British courts.


British Courts using EU rulings in coming to its decisions.

The amount we receive back is peanuts, around 25% it has already been mentioned by another poster so I felt under no obligations to repeat it for people like you who have obviously not bothered to read it.

As I said, it will all come out in the wash, so as said by another winner "Calm down dear and wait for your chance to learn from the debates".

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110248 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
24 Jan 2013 - 11:50 AM


Quote: you happily quote the amount we send to the EU and ignore the amount we get back (because that would reduce your argument against EU),

Not so Mike, we are the second largest net contributor to the EU after Germany, in addition to running a negative balance of trade with the EU. The EU costs the UK money both directly and indirectly


Quote: Quote: our net contribution to the Brussels budget, from 5.3 billion in 2009 to 9.2 billion in 2010

From Hansard

Last Modified By brian1208 at 24 Jan 2013 - 11:50 AM
collywobles
24 Jan 2013 - 11:53 AM


Quote: Taking the point to add some thought behind my views (welcome to hear other views as I doubt I understand all of this debate).
To my eyes the UK has missed ..................

I think you summed this up very well Strawman. its this kind of discussion that is needed for all of us to make a choice.

collywobles
24 Jan 2013 - 12:03 PM


Quote: Sorry a genuine error on my part but still 11.25% betters any other bank investment.

As has already been said you cannot take one days change of the FTSE as representative as its only a snap shot in time where stocks & shares prices can change in seconds, and then to go on and multiply this up into an annual figure just shows your missunderstanding of economics. I wonder what you would have made of the maths on BLACK WEDNESDAY in September 1992 ....................

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