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Cameron and the EU speech

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Reason : going nowhere because of FM


mikehit e2
5 6.8k 11 United Kingdom
24 Jan 2013 3:47PM
...or any problems that will arise if we pull out?

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brian1208 e2
11 10.4k 12 United Kingdom
24 Jan 2013 4:06PM
An example of what I was talking about:

India buys French Dassault Rafale instead of the Euro Fighter

and I found this quote intriguing


Quote:The face-off between the French Rafale and the part-British Typhoon has been an intriguing subplot to the wider saga of European disharmony, with relations between Paris and London becoming increasingly acrimonious against the backdrop of Europe’s economic malaise.


and this comment from an article in The Independent also makes a point re: the Financial Sector


Quote:Chris Cummings, chief executive of the TheCityUK, is dismissive of rebalancing, and wants the Government to protect the City of London's global pre-eminence. He says. "Economies specialise – that's the truth of it. We live in a very competitive world, and other parts of the world are trying to grow their financial services. Germany is pitching for our business, and so is Asia. The UK is currently sitting on the sidelines while our major industry is being actively wooed


on the automotive front, one of our most successful automotive businesses Jaguar Landrover is owned by Tata an Indian company, Honda are reducing numners because the EU side of the business is in decline with the majority of their trade being in the UK and outside the EU
Quote:Honda's Swindon factory builds cars and engines for export to more than 60 countries in Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Australia


I found it difficult to get similar data for Nissan although they did say that they were investing in the UK plant because


Quote:Sunderland was awarded the model thanks to its reputation for efficiency, both in terms of quality and cost as well as ability to deliver, said Mr Dodge, who worked at the plant from 1984 until 2007 before he was promoted and moved to the Nissan headquarters in Japan.

The Nissan factory has earned a reputation for efficiency Nissan used to claim that its Sunderland plant, which currently employs more than 6,000 people, was the most efficient car factory in Europe, though these days it tends not to mention this. "But it is," said Mr Dodge. "We just don't keep chest-beating about it year in, year out."



not because it was in the EU
mikehit e2
5 6.8k 11 United Kingdom
24 Jan 2013 4:32PM
I am not sure why the first two comments are an incentive either way. I would suggest that if we are outside the EU, France/Germany would go all out for that business. While we are in EU, we can lever some influence over how aggressive they are - in fact if we are outside the EU, markets may move to Germany because of access to the European financial clout.

The Nissan decision was based on efficiency, but at the time it was reported that access to EU markets was part of the negotiation: why produce a car more efficiently in UK only for EU to impose import tariffs?

But the car industry is a special case - there are thousands of small businesses who deal with EU and those will be significantly affected if we were to pull out of the bloc.
Focus_Man 4 481 631 United Kingdom
24 Jan 2013 4:34PM

Quote:Out of interest: can you list any benefits of being in the EU?


No none at all, because given the entry fee and annual subscriptions for this corrupt, inefficient, naive and unelected personnel lead organisation, there just aren't any.

It seems that the majority of people in the UK including Cmeron are in your opinion 'not running in the right direction'. Yous eem to believe that youa re right and everybody else is wrong when you are actually the one out of the hundred marchers who is in step!

As I said many times the referendum will settle the matter one way or the other. You must be a Milliband fan as he doesn't want a referendum, but his party soon told him that they mioght come the next general election so that they can appeal equally to the electorate, so he now has changed his tune, but we do really know his and your true feelings. Like him you must have a vested interest in maintaining political jobs so that failed politicians can move into the Eu once they have been booted out of parliament here. That is the only thing the EU is good for (not for us but for failed politicians like Clegg, and other ex PMs as well as their wives in some cases. Remember the great Sheffield Rally?) perhaps you work in the public sector, that seems to be your brain set. Fair enough, but state your vested interest rather than attempting to support such a failed, inept, corrupt and profligate organisation.
mikehit e2
5 6.8k 11 United Kingdom
24 Jan 2013 4:38PM
It is interesting that we are not able to 'just withdraw'. The terms and conditions of withdrawl have to be negotiated and ratified by a majority vote of the EU members. I am sure they will not let us go quietly.

As a counterbalance to all those who talk about the benefits of withdrawal, this site explains some of the potential negatives:
http://www.accountancyage.com/aa/feature/2141274/uk-left-eu

All UK workers in EU would likely be redundant until they could get work visas (and return to the UK in the meantime); removal of many anti-competitive proections arising from EUlaw; removal of freedom of movement within EU; removal of the structural cohesion funding (possibly increasing the poor-rich divide); laws related to EU could be ineligible leaving hugeholes in our legal system etc.
mikehit e2
5 6.8k 11 United Kingdom
24 Jan 2013 4:39PM

Quote:Out of interest: can you list any benefits of being in the EU?

No none at all, because given the entry fee and annual subscriptions for this corrupt, inefficient, naive and unelected personnel lead organisation, there just aren't any.


So in other words you are not interested in debate because there is nothing to debate.
Focus_Man 4 481 631 United Kingdom
24 Jan 2013 4:45PM

Quote:All UK workers in EU would likely be redundant until they could get work visas (and return to the UK in the meantime); removal of many anti-competitive proections arising from EUlaw; removal of freedom of movement within EU; removal of the structural cohesion funding (possibly increasing the poor-rich divide); laws related to EU could be ineligible leaving hugeholes in our legal system etc.


Thereby is a massive saving to the UK. Don't you think all that will be sorted out before we leave? For heaven's sake we are talking 2018/9!


Quote:Out of interest: can you list any benefits of being in the EU?

No none at all, because given the entry fee and annual subscriptions for this corrupt, inefficient, naive and unelected personnel lead organisation, there just aren't any.
So in other words you are not interested in debate because there is nothing to debate.



I am willing to debate to see if I am wrong. But this is not the place as you have a vested interest in remaining in the EU ortherwise you would not act as a false prophet, failing to quote the truth and giving the myth.
Focus_Man 4 481 631 United Kingdom
24 Jan 2013 4:50PM

Quote:As a counterbalance to all those who talk about the benefits of withdrawal, this site explains some of the potential negatives:
http://www.accountancyage.com/aa/feature/2141274/uk-left-eu .



Conclusions are as follows.
Many aspects of the effective situation we may experience if the withdrawal were to occur remain unknown or are speculations at best

Did you also notice he works for the EU?
mikehit e2
5 6.8k 11 United Kingdom
24 Jan 2013 5:16PM

Quote:I am willing to debate to see if I am wrong. But this is not the place as you have a vested interest in remaining in the EU ortherwise you would not act as a false prophet, failing to quote the truth and giving the myth.


Lord! Anyone who agrees with you is someone who understands the issues. Anyoen who disagree with you has a vested interest so their views are invalid and/or is a false prohet and not telling the truth - either way you can safely ignore them and have no need to challenge your own conclusions. What a lovely cosy world you live in.


Quote:Many aspects of the effective situation we may experience if the withdrawal were to occur remain unknown or are speculations at best


Have you recognised the irony in that statement?
brian1208 e2
11 10.4k 12 United Kingdom
24 Jan 2013 5:25PM
As we are all debating about "Unknowns" I think it perfectly possible to have a reasoned debate and agree to disagree.

The fact is that the EU was an experiment based on an act of faith, no one knew if it would work (and one could argue the jury is still out on that today Smile ).

Likewise our renegotiation of our relationship will have unknown / unpredictable consequences for the UK and EU countries, but then , the outcome of the status quo (good group that) with all the financial, economic and social problems is still totally unpredictable (and could yet end in revolutionary protests by the mass of unemployed leading to a violent breakup of the EU)

At the end of the day any responsible government must first and foremost look after the interests of this country, however they may be interpreted and I would argue that the electorate must have a key part in agreeing any changes of direction, because of the uncertainties involved if nothing else
strawman 10 22.0k 16 United Kingdom
24 Jan 2013 6:20PM
Brian did you read this by the head of Honda UK It reiterates how important it is to Honda (and many other international companies) that the UK stays inside Europe.

As someone who works in the automotive industry I remember the discussions about why Nissan and Honda wanted car plants inside the Euro Zone. From that selection criterion (it was a fundamental requirement) the concessions on unions and low labour rates and low dispute levels made the UK attractive. Now if you put those plants outside the Eurozone?? I wish I still had some of my old trade mags from the time to show you but it was some time back.

The fact we are in the euro economic trade zone means that it is a given. You do not expect the Press release from Nissan to say that. But if exports to Europe were subjected to an import tax, I wonder if the situation would change. Mainland Europe has an excess of car manufacturing plants. Would leaving the euro remove the UK plants from the risk category, well no….

The Honda situation is down to more than just the general sales situation in Europe, their products have also lost % market share, so they have a double impact. Also their plant is built now. If the UK were outside the Eurozone then future investment decisions might be changed. I know that in the automotive market investment decisions take into account the trade tariffs etc, my employer has move manufacturing as such things have changed. If you take the UK out of the Eurozone then there is a high chance that a fair percentage of my employers manufacturing would be moved. The fact the UK is not in the Euro has impacted some investment decisions and employment.
brian1208 e2
11 10.4k 12 United Kingdom
24 Jan 2013 7:39PM
Yep, read it and understood it.

As I said somewhere earlier, I can understand the wish by mulit-nationals that we remain in the EU.

I was also mulling over why it is that the USA and EU state members want us there, which is an intriguing question when you think about it

Some possible thoughts (some slightly tongue in cheek and some less so)

- EU members like us for our quirky ways and the fact that we pay more in than we take out

- they also like us because they can run rings around us when it comes to things like Fishing Quotas, CAP etc

- some of the less committed EU countries such as Belgium, Denmark, Holland and even Germany to a certain extent like us because we act as a lightining rod, taking the shocks for saying things they may think but feel uncomfortable saying themselves

- a lot of EU nationals like us there because they prefer to live and work in the UK rather than at home and the EU rules allow them easy access to our job market (and no - I'm not having a pop at the East Eurpeans before anyone starts). I worked with many Dutch, French, German and Belgian colleagues in Shell and all said much the same thing.

_ the Yanks like us there as a conduit by which they believe they can modify EU activities (to suit their own political and economic needs)

You may not believe it but I am Agnostic when it comes to the EU (but I am strongly ant-Federalist).

I've worked over their overr many years, like a lot of the culture, food and people but I have never been sure that the basic concept was right (unlike the EFTA set up which I was very comfortable with)

Anyone who has followed my debates here on EPZ will know that I am very sceptical of people who propound their views of the world as "Right" and wish to attempt to denigrate alternate views as "Biased ", "Sceptic", Mis-informed etc

I can get very emotional about this type of argument so to counteract that tend to rely heavily on as much factual data as possible, happily declaring the fact that I may be wrong or unsure where needed

I do believe this is a debate that the country should have been allowed to have about 15 years ago, with clear and concise arguments being put forward by all parties.

I fear that is unlikely to happen in this media run, over-hyped atmosphere we live in, where instant right / wrong answers are always demanded NOW!

Enough already Tongue
Paul Morgan e2
13 15.7k 6 England
24 Jan 2013 7:49PM

I wondered how long it would be before the "little englander" backwoods men would surface


I`m a little Englander, I even voted UKIP at the last election Smile

Quicker we are out the better I think, I don`t particularly believe it could be good or bad for business.
brian1208 e2
11 10.4k 12 United Kingdom
24 Jan 2013 7:52PM
Good for you Paul, someone has too! Tongue
joolsb 10 27.1k 38 Switzerland
24 Jan 2013 9:29PM

Quote:You may not believe it but I am Agnostic when it comes to the EU (but I am strongly ant-Federalist).



I'm actually becoming more and more federalist with each passing UK government. What makes you think Brussels could do a worse job of governing the UK than the clowns we've elected for ourselves over the years?