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Hi all... Please excuse my poor terminology here... I'm trying to learn more about photography and I'm still making stupid mistakes.
I'm currently saving up for a Canon Digital SLR camera, with an aim to buy around late May / June 2004. I'm currently using a Sony DSC-F717 digital camera and have only recently started trying to learn to take proper pictures with it. Until now I've been a point-and-shooter.
I'm looking to move to SLR for a couple of reasons... I want a larger range of shutter speeds and I want to reduce or even better, eliminate the lag between shutter press and picture taking. I'd also like to experiment with modes like bulb.
Mostly I want to take pictures of park's, other outdoorsy stuff and architecture. I'm leaning towards the 10D mostly because of the bigger frame buffer and finer grain on the exposure steps. This is where my problem comes in though.
For the cost of the 10D I could probably get a 300D plus a semi-decent lense (looking for two lenses to start, a zoom and a decent prime lens). So I'm very tempted to go this route. My fear though, is that I will outgrow the camera in too short a period of time and be left with a very expensive toy that I don't enjoy any more. How likely is this ?
Of course, my other option is to go 35mm SLR, and get a very good lens and then go digital later. My problem here is the time between shooting and seeing the picture. I'm trying to learn and I'm not sure I'm comfortable waiting that long to see the results of my learning. Added to that the fact that I can get all the info like exposure, shutter speed and ISO out of the EXIF tags on a digital camera means I don't have to take notes while I'm shooting, and digital looks good - just expensive.
Finally, on the topic of lenses, from what I understand with either the 10D or the 300D, a 50mm focal length lens would be the same as putting an 80mm on a 35mm SLR camera. I'm looking for a 50mm lens with a wide open appurture (around 1.8). On 35mm SLR, I could get this with the 50/1.8... What would I need to look for to get this on digital ?
Wayne,
Firstly there is no difference in image quality between the 10D and 300D - they use the same sensor and digic chip.
As for frame buffer unless you are taking sports I doubt you will need the higher FPS and buffer - especially with the images you say you will take.
Given where you are coming from you can get a great deal from the 300D, and it won't suddenly become useless for you as you can move to the creative modes (P, TV, AV, M, Bulb) and it will be a fine camera nopt an expensive toy. I would also say that the 300D is likely to be a current model for longer than the 10D and may hold it's price better.
My advice (as a 10D and 1Ds owner, but a pro user) is go for the 300D and spend the extra 300-400 on better lenses.
I was already sorted with most of my good glass (on Canon 35mm film SLR's) before I moved to digital and would recommend you take a look at the 28-135 IS and maybe the 50mm f1.8. Both are good glass and the 28-135 is a good walkabout lens.
If you want to get 50mm on a 300D or 10D then you need to accept a slower lens (f3.5 on the 28-135) or walk backwards using your 50mm f1.8 until you get the same view !
Best you will be for 50mm f1.8 equivalent is probably a 35mm f2.0 prime or a 28mm f2.8 not sure on prices but expensive compared to the 50mm f1.8.
Not sure why you feel the need to get f1.8 though - you'll find that depth of field works differently on a 35mm camera than a digital compact.
Hope this helps
Mike
Mike,
Thanks for the reply. I'm still going to umm and ah about this for a couple of months. I guess with my current level of talent, it will be quite a while before I outgrow a 300D, and if I'm careful with what I buy I'll have good lenses if / when I move up from the 300D.
One thing I will occasionally get to photograph is game in South Africa. That is somewhere that a bigger frame buffer might be useful, but I guess given that I'll get to do that at most every 2 years, I can hire a camera for those occasions.
I'll have to look up what all of those modes mean. At the moment, I only really use shutter priority and apperture priority on the 717.
Overall, would the 300D be a good camera to learn on?
Does the 300D have a depth of field preview? I think I read that the 10D does.
One last thing - do you have any pointers to where I can read up on depth of field differences between analog and digital ?
Wayne - I made the transition from digital point and shoot to 300D. My views on your questions are as follows:
- Is it a good camera to learn on: yes, and the intial learning curve is steep (for any D-SLR). Learning effective post processing techniques is a must, so be prepared for that as well.
- Does it have depth of field pre-view: yes (although I don't really use it yet)
If you haven't found it yet, have a look
HERE for some useful views and guidance.
hope this may be of some use,
Brian
Brian,
Thanks a lot for the link... I'm just waiting for that to load now and I'll have a look.
I don't mind the big learning curve. I've been reading a lot of theory over the past two months and playing with what I do have.
Postprocessing is going to kill me 
I have NO artistic ability at all. Ah well... time to buy that Gimp book after all 
I too am saving up and nearly there.
One thing to think on is the 300D has a smart depth of field function, in that with this feature it calculates focus at 7 points and uses the depth of field to get as much of the picture in focus as possible.
From all I can read there is no real dissadvantage of the 300D, just that it offers more basic features automated and has grouped functions so you may have to swith fully to manual where the 10D may offer a semi-automatic feature. e.g in the 10D you can change focus and meter modes in shutter priority where in the 300D you get a set option. Having said that the 300D does offer a full manual mode and also exposure compensation so you can over-ride it at will, it just may take a bit longer than in the 10D.
Lastly it has a plastic case(Metal mount and chassis inside) This would apear to be a love it or hate it issue. Its lighter and probably less likely to be in one piece after a big drop, but there again will the delicate precision sensor shutter etc survive the drop?
I am nearly at the 300D level of savings and think I will stop there and save up for some lenses, as the 300D looks to be about 400 less than the 10D for the same image quality.
John
John, you are right. The case is polycarbonate on a metal sub-frame. Polycarbonate is designed as a shock resistant "plastic" and the lenses, mirror etc will be ruined long before any real harm came to the case. Ditto with the mag alloy of the 10D.
Brian
Hmm... So there is no way to change the focus to center weighted without going to full manual mode ? If so, that might be a pain in the butt. I really want to be able to focus on something and blur the rest of the background at times. This means center weighted focus I think, with a very small aperture.
The plastic case doesn't bug me terribly. I've been carrying around a Sony in my rucksack for the last 4 and a bit months and it's been ok.
Of course, my other option is to pick up the camera on holiday in the USA. That way I might be able to get the 10D on the 300D budget with tax back at the airport.
Grrr... hate tough decisions
I think you can select focus points, but if something moves I believe it trys to track the moving object. The exposure is evaluative for example for most of the shooting modes. For the reviews I have read, they all think you can work around the issues.
I am off to the states at the end of the month but I think you may need to think about whether the waranty covers you in the UK when you return, so I was going to look for an international warranty or buy when I come back.
Try Looking at the Andy Rouse review at warehouse express for an opinion what you can or cannot do.
Personaly I do not find dropping to manual too bad a problem for probably less than 1% of my photo's. I remeber when I had match needle metering and focused manualy viewing things on a dark ground glass screen. Slow but educational.
Think of it like buying a mondeo or an x-type jag. Both have the same engines, suspension etc, but the jag has more image and autotransmission etc, the ford can, in some cases, be more fun and costs less. Both are perfectly good and flexible.
Regards John
"Hmm... So there is no way to change the focus to center weighted without going to full manual mode ? If so, that might be a pain in the butt. I really want to be able to focus on something and blur the rest of the background at times. This means center weighted focus I think, with a very small aperture"
CW is the default in manual mode, but its not the only mode you can use it in. In the other creative modes pressing the AE lock puts you in CW mode. However whatever metering mode is used has no bearing on reducing depth of field to throw the background out of focus, that is down to selecting a wide aperture setting.
Paul, that is good info. I have come on a trip and didn't pack my 300D instruction book. One thing has been bugging me, not being able to get CW mode in the creative settings, now I will go back onto the Singapore streets with this knowledge and see if I can focus on exactly what I want not what the camera wants....but I must say, the camera has been great and I have so far enjoyed the results. A great learning tool..
The 10D is a lovely camera, but if Money is an issue, there is very little it can do that the 300D cannot.
Wayne - The techniue you metion - that of focusing on a subuct, but bluring the background is not at all dependant on 'Center Weighted' metering (or any other metering mode). The 'Depth of field' (i.e. how blured/sharp the background is) is controlled by the apture of the lens - wide open (say F2.8 or F4) for a small depth of field, and a wide apature (say F22) for a wide depth of field. (please note that the focal lenght of the lens and distance from the subject play a huge role as well, in that to decrease the depth of field, and blur the background you want to get up close with a telephoto lens).
To control the apature, you need to use the 'Av' mode, and this works just the same on the 300D as it does on the 10D. Infact this is really more dependant on the lens than the camera body.
Wayne,
I have been a 300D user for a couple of months now and it will keep me occupied and learning for a long time to come. It has all the functions you could want and I would like to bet you won't get around to using most of them. I was a bit sceptical of the plastic body to begin with but I love it now.
Don't miss; www.ultimateslr.com - go to the 300D page. Lots of useful stuff and a good comparison chart between the 10D. I think you will see that there isn't a lot between them.
Personally I would save the money on the 10D and go for a better mid-range lens. The 10D will probably be replaced this year, or early next, so that might be about the right time to trade up.
I got mine with the standard lens because I couldn't see me being able to buy a good wide lens for quite some time. People slag it off but I have been very pleased with mine - I also saw one go for 100 recently on ebay so there is obviously a second hand market for them as well.
You might read people looking down their noses at the plastic body and the fact that the finish is silver. Snobbery in my opinion!
Regards
John
Right... I've mostly decided on the 300D. This is mainly a financial issue. I can buy the 300D with the kit lens and one semi-decent lens for the price of the 10D body.
My final concern is something called backfocusing / frontfocusing. A lot of people at dpreview forum seem to be having problems with something called backfocusing.
Can anyone explain what this is to me please ? I've tried to register for the dpreview forums to ask this question there, but I've not had a reply yet.
thanks
Wayne,
Back Focus is when the lens does not hold focus when zoomed.
The manual for the 300D warns about this, but it is not realy a problem.
All I do is press the shutter button halfway down to focus, release the button and frame the shot with the zoom and a further half press to refocus the image before taking the shot.
I have only had my 300D for a week and I love it!
Hope that helps.
Doug
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