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Changing history??

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answersonapostcard
answersonapostcard Site Moderator 1012604 forum postsanswersonapostcard vcard United Kingdom15 Constructive Critique Points
19 Jan 2012 - 2:38 PM

I think the PS work is wonderful, bit clean looking now though in colour. Pictures like this will always have impact whether in b&w or colour for me.

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19 Jan 2012 - 2:38 PM

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User_Removed
19 Jan 2012 - 2:48 PM


Quote: As for changing history; that's not actually possible.

History is a record of events. If you invent false information about those events, even the colour of a flag, you are mucking around with that record.

macroman
macroman  1115312 forum posts England
19 Jan 2012 - 2:50 PM

Historical facts can't be changed, but they can be rewritten, distorted or emphasized to give an innacurate account of what actually happened.

The same applies to news images of the past (or present), altering images by cloning, airbrushing, removing details is frowned upon, is this post colouring process any different in principle?

Jestertheclown
19 Jan 2012 - 2:52 PM


Quote: If you invent false information about those events, even the colour of a flag, you are mucking around with that record.

You can muck about with it the colour of a flag as much as you like. It's still only an image.
You cannot alter the fact that events have already taken place.

User_Removed
19 Jan 2012 - 2:54 PM

Whoosh! Nobody said it would change the events themselves, just the history.

History (from Greek ἱστορία - historia, meaning "inquiry, knowledge acquired by investigation" is the discovery, collection, organization, and presentation of information about past events

Jestertheclown
19 Jan 2012 - 2:55 PM

I'm off.

mikehit
mikehit  56474 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
19 Jan 2012 - 2:55 PM


Quote: If you invent false information about those events, even the colour of a flag, you are mucking around with that record.

Photographing in B&W is creating a false record. So I just don't see that mucking around with a false record is particuarly heinous.


I can fully understand your reluctance about changing iconic images, but I just think you are hanging your coat on the wrong peg here.

User_Removed
19 Jan 2012 - 2:59 PM


Quote: I just don't see that mucking around with a false record is particuarly heinous.

If I got some old photos of your grandfather and dressed him in pink, or the colours of Rangers, or Celtic or whatever then that's fine cos it's a false record anyway?

It's not fine because I'd be inventing information

mikehit
mikehit  56474 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
19 Jan 2012 - 3:00 PM


Quote: History (from Greek ἱστορία - historia, meaning "inquiry, knowledge acquired by investigation" is the discovery, collection, organization, and presentation of information about past events

As soon as a photographer elects to stand in a certain place, use a certain film, crop the image in a certain way they are adding their interpretation of the events. As soon as someon uses certain images in a book and not others they are used to support a certain point of view. It no longer becomes 'history', it becomes one person's interpretation of events. It is then up to the viewer to use that information, amongst others to create a whole picture.

It seems to me that your concern is where this practice might end, not what the artist has done in the case at the start of the article.

mikehit
mikehit  56474 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
19 Jan 2012 - 3:04 PM


Quote: I just don't see that mucking around with a false record is particuarly heinous.

If I got some old photos of your grandfather and dressed him in pink, or the colours of Rangers, or Celtic or whatever then that's fine cos it's a false record anyway?

It's not fine because I'd be inventing information

The artist in the OP has done their best to colour the pictures in a way that is sympathetic to the times and known facts. Dressing my grandfather in pink would be fantasy unless you knew him personally and had justification for doing so.
To use your earlier example, painting members of the Orange Order, or painting Celtic fans in blue would be either deliberately provocative or sheer laziness.

There is a BIG difference.

User_Removed
19 Jan 2012 - 3:05 PM


Quote: It is then up to the viewer to use that information, amongst others to create a whole picture

So it's alright then? Is that the same excuse they use when they airbrush the models in the cosmetic ads?

It should be encouraged then Mike or frowned upon?

scartlane
scartlane  368 forum posts United Kingdom
19 Jan 2012 - 3:11 PM


Quote: I just don't see that mucking around with a false record is particuarly heinous.

If I got some old photos of your grandfather and dressed him in pink, or the colours of Rangers, or Celtic or whatever then that's fine cos it's a false record anyway?

It's not fine because I'd be inventing information

The artist in the OP has done their best to colour the pictures in a way that is sympathetic to the times and known facts. Dressing my grandfather in pink would be fantasy unless you knew him personally and had justification for doing so.
To use your earlier example, painting members of the Orange Order, or painting Celtic fans in blue would be either deliberately provocative or sheer laziness.

There is a BIG difference.

that does depend on the amount of information available, and hence why i think they should be kept as they are.

as i outlined earlier, confederate armys (accoring to history books) didnt wear brown pants, and clearly they are pictured now with brown pants. Im sure this could be as emotive as painting celtic fans blue.

I cant see what is gained from "falsely" colouring these old black and white pictures, they just look fake to me,

macroman
macroman  1115312 forum posts England
19 Jan 2012 - 3:19 PM

Problem is that it's all guesswork.


Imagine if 'Time Team' in 500 years time came across several images coloured by different people.
There would endless discussion about which one had the correct colour.


Poor old Tony Robinson would be bounding around like a demented Kangaroo.....

"Phil, Can we be more specific about this, did Einstein really have ginger hair, or was it black with blonde streaks?".

"Oooh Aaah, Sorry Tony, at this point we aren't too sure, it could be that he was as bald as a cucumber......we just don't know, but Geo Fizz is working on it." GrinGrin

Last Modified By macroman at 19 Jan 2012 - 3:24 PM
mikehit
mikehit  56474 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
19 Jan 2012 - 3:20 PM

It's OK for me. I am not looking at a model as 'history'.

If they doctored pictures of the Klu Klux Klan to show African Americans dancing happily round a burning cross and that picture was published in a book about KKK then that would very likely be 'changing history'. If the context of the picture is one of irony (let us say it was created by an African American) I would look at it differently. Context is everything.


A picture is worth a thousand words. But the picture, ironically, is worthless without a caption or text that puts it into context. The burning ships at Pearl Harbour ajust that - a picture with a lot of smoke. But in context of the 'day of infamy' it means one heck of a lot (even with the contex,t for anyone under 30 years of age it is probably just another war picture). Simlarly the picture of the migrant worker. Anyone who bases their view of history on a picture without context would be ridiculous.

Work from the other end. How much post processing do you think is enough? If you can a line then I will applaud you. And by that I mean set definable measurable limits that makes it clear what is an is not acceptable. Unless you can do that then we are all left to our own preferences.

mikehit
mikehit  56474 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
19 Jan 2012 - 3:41 PM


Quote:
Imagine if 'Time Team' in 500 years time came across several images coloured by different people.
There would endless discussion about which one had the correct colour.



I hope they would have more important things to worry about than Einstein's hair colour Smile

If you take this line ad absurdam then all those montaged photos on the internet should be banned in case some point in the future someone gets the idea (wrong as far as I know) that Hilary Clinton's head was actually transplanted onto a porn star's body. Or the film 'Pearl Harbour' should be destroyed because it will seem that the biggest effect of the strike was that some schmaltzy couple who no one really cared about were a little upset.
(there are better and more valid reasons for destroying that film from the annals of Hollywood)

As I say, personal preference is one thing. Reacting on the basis that we are changing history (event-based) and someone will take it out of context is another.

Last Modified By mikehit at 19 Jan 2012 - 3:45 PM

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