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Stenno
Stenno  7 England
21 Apr 2011 - 12:05 AM

That was just my way of explaining the original point I brought up and how biased things seem to be here on this site?
We all want to produce something worthwhile, we all want our images to have impact, be liked and hopefully receive plaudits of some kind...I don't think I'm alone in thinking this? If I was then someone might be kind enough to explain to me what 90+% of the members are doing on a site such as this?
At times, I do receive very few votes/comments on my images, there's nothing I can do about that but I'm still happy to get them. It does show someone has taken the time to look, hopefully saying something positive about it and not just given me a vote because I happen to be a member of the same camera club as them!
Not entirely sure what you class as 'outstanding' work but whatever it is it's your own personal take/opinion on things although I have witnessed several members pages littered with awards for images which at best I would say are nothing out of the ordinary?
I'll just be content with those that do like my stuff and if I do get a great number of votes for a particular image whilst your just happy to pass it by (which does happen) then I'll just have to accept that although it may be very good, in your considered opinion, it just ain't good enough Smile

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Pete
Pete Site Moderator 1318450 forum postsPete vcard ePz Advertiser England96 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 12:21 AM


Quote: and how biased things seem to be here on this site?

I have no bias
One thing that you are lucky with is that your pictures seem to be fairly representative of the votes you get. So if it gets a high vote it indicates it's very good. While a low vote, like your latest indicates, it's not so good. The votes vs quality seems quite consistent.

The fact it's a naked lady also increases vote count compared with a clothed bloke for example. So you may be getting swayed by the number of votes and don't think it seem consistent with my view. But I feel I've awarded your best, and those where outstanding. And yes you're right - it's just my views (unbiased)...and we'd be happy to see yours - feel free to take the Guest Editor slot, you'd be most welcome. Smile

Stenno
Stenno  7 England
21 Apr 2011 - 1:04 AM

Oh I see, so what you are now saying is the high/low levels of votes I get could be biased in favour of whether the ladies I happen to photograph are naked, or not so?
Well I'll be damned, I think you are clutching at straws don't you?
Also you've awarded my 'best'?...well again that's just your opinion and to be quite frank I don't rate it but that's ok because that's it for me with uploads to this site, it won't happen again as it appears from your summing up here, the images I take are merely tittilation for the masses and it appears absolutely worthless?
Am I to take it you are saying the greater amount of flesh on show, the more votes I get? Well now we can't have that can we and here's me trying to be a serious photographer, never mind!
I'm sure you have witnessed some of the more (dare I say) tacky nude, nay soft core porn images on your site? What do you think of those then?
You've actually discounted every point I've made throughout this thread, as for being a guest editor that is totally out of the question...you see when the members who do receive the much coveted awards they have bestowed on them daily, don't actually get one from me because their images really aren't as good as the credit you give them, if I'm not mistaken there will be hell to pay! Wink

Pete
Pete Site Moderator 1318450 forum postsPete vcard ePz Advertiser England96 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 1:15 AM

You've misunderstood my point totally...sorry.

MediumSizeUnavailable

perhaps just rename the site Pete. UKlandscape and nature? Just seems more 'honest' as basically anything else gets shunned by the vast majority of the 'photo' enthusiasts on the site.
Sometimes I like to make a comparison with 1x, where you have a very balanced input of photography (genres), which is only possible because the members of the site show a very balanced interest in photography (genres), and because the site owners made the bold choice to go for 'photography', rather then trying to combine networking and 'serious' photography.
Now let's have a quick look at the 'latest comments' on ephotozine. It's something you can do at any given time, and which says it all really :

1 landscape
2 butterfly
3 flower
4 duck
5 bear through a tire (black and white)
6 geese
7 landscape
8 selfportrait with request to do funny mods
9 flower
10 landscape
11 flower
12 architecture
13 monkeys
14 beautiful woman
15 beautiful woman
16 street shot
17 humor shot (black and white)
18 butterfly
19 bee on flower
20 butterfly on flower
21 snake
22 photo of granddaughter and -son
23 portrait
24 flower
25 child portrait
26 bee
27 butterfly
28 butterfly
29 flower
30 environmental portrait (reenactment - mentioning this as it's a 'genre' on epz)
31 bird
32 flower
33 same bee on flower as before
34 woman portrait
35 flower
36 birds
37 butterfly
38 flower
39 flower
40 woman portrait (toned - black and white)
41 flower (same as 29)
42 landscape/holiday shot
43 humor/digitally manipulated
44 mix of flower, landscape, DM, with 'street' element
45 landscape
46 photo of guard at the tower
47 landscape
48 birds
49 flower on old postcard
50 bird

Now look at the genres and look what is completely missing, or almost completely missing. I'm convinced that the vast majority of the members is actually pleased about this state of affairs. So just look for a sitename that covers the content. ephotozine doesn't. I understand that you see things different Pete... your balanced choice of ECs and HCs shows well how you would like to see the site - genre-wise. But it's misleading in the sense that doesn't represent what the site really has become. the balance you see in the awards, is completely non-existant in ephotozine as a whole. And trying to lure in photographers who are active in other genres then those which are not shunned by most of the members will ultimately just lead to the new photographers leaving again in disappointment and mocking the site.

Personally I had to downgrade my ephotozine expectations year after year, to the point that, well, there is almost nothing left. Guess I'm down to doing it because there are still a few people left (all the others really left) who I like to keep contact with. sometimes I hope to see a good photo by them, sometimes I leave a comment on a (good) photo of a 'relative' newcomer, but knowing it's a lost effort... they will leave soon enough.

For a big part of the members this is a social networking site. For them it never really had anything to do with photography. The(ir) photos just gave them a chance to do their social networking. And then there is the other big part, which mostly is 'into' landscape and nature photography and couldn't care less about anything else.

edit (writing this because I just saw the 'argument' above): not trying to put you in a hot spot with what I wrote Pete. But I'm not joking either... I really think you should rethink the whole 'ephotozine'-idea, and turn it into something that is more realistic, considering the interests of the vast majority of the members.

Last Modified By MediumSizeUnavailable at 21 Apr 2011 - 1:30 AM
Paul Morgan
Paul Morgan e2 Member 1315487 forum postsPaul Morgan vcard England6 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 1:46 AM

I think the vast majority are happy Koen, I don`t see many of them posting here, just the usual bunch of happy or un-happy folk.

woodlark
woodlark e2 Member 10538 forum postswoodlark vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 1:48 AM

Sounds like your seeking some
Quote: sycophantic adulation

Geoff, for someone who wants to be content with the votes they get I cant understand your rant. Is it Petes opinions or the people who vote on your shots. Personally I think your shots are good. And votes wise you do quite well. Just out of interest what do you want ?

Petes choices for me are a diverse selection and how i would love to see the site looking.


As for you Kopi dont even think about going anywhere, real life images are few and far between. Obviously votes are irrelevant to you, its capturing the life and emotion in the shots and sharing that matters.

Overread
Overread  63770 forum posts England18 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 1:49 AM


Quote: I think the vast majority are happy Koen, I don`t see many of them posting here, just the usual bunch of happy or un-happy folk.

And the odd few who just like to get in on a debate about things Tongue

MediumSizeUnavailable


Quote: I think the vast majority are happy Koen, I don`t see many of them posting here

yup, they're perfectly happy in their little bubble Wink ; and can't be bothered about anything that happens outside that little bubble. And as a result ephotozine is now exactly that... a little bubble Wink


Quote: dont even think about going anywhere

; not yet. forgot to mention it... but I do love the sense of humor on epz. problem is, I had to downgrade my expectations so much, that what is left has nothing really to do anymore with photography.

Well I do care about votes Karl, which is partly why I don't disable them. depending on from who the vote comes, or doesn't come, it says something about how some people -whose opinion I value- perceive my photos. And I know how difficult it sometimes is to comment... a vote also is a way of approving/liking a photo without having to say it. like a wink from a lady at the other side of the room Wink

Paul Morgan
Paul Morgan e2 Member 1315487 forum postsPaul Morgan vcard England6 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 2:17 AM


Quote: depending on from who the vote comes, or doesn't come, it says something about how some people -whose opinion I value- perceive my photos

Is a decent comment not enough then Koen, its reached the point when I pretty much don`t vote any more. Seems some only appreciate votes from there circle of little chums, if your not in that circle then your vote holds no merit, and your looked upon as vote fishing.

Lol why bother Sad

Coleslaw
Coleslaw e2 Member 913403 forum postsColeslaw vcard Wales28 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 7:28 AM

Koen, I can't see how Pete could stop certain genre uploaded on the site.
With 1x, there are also certain genres which are more popular.
EPZ is always changing with season. Maybe it is spring time now and plenty of wildlife and animals and insects to shoot? Though granted, landscape is always popular, which is why you always see them on magazines.

answersonapostcard
answersonapostcard Site Moderator 1012607 forum postsanswersonapostcard vcard United Kingdom15 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 8:21 AM


Quote: With 1x, there are also certain genres which are more popular.

I'm really not sure how you can even begin to compare 1x with epz. I got bored of looking at 1x ages ago, its style was too similar in what it accepts, however I've just gone and had another look and the standard seems to have dropped considerably.

Pete
Pete Site Moderator 1318450 forum postsPete vcard ePz Advertiser England96 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 8:23 AM

Thanks Koen, I agree with much of what you're saying
Quote: Sometimes I like to make a comparison with 1x, where you have a very balanced input of photography (genres), which is only possible because the members of the site show a very balanced interest in photography (genres), and because the site owners made the bold choice to go for 'photography', rather then trying to combine networking and 'serious' photography.

Not quite true as far as I know 1x has a filtered set of genres - you won't see excellent bird on stick photos or sunsets for example and those are still forms of serious photography. And also it's pictures let through that the "judges like" So if you like an extended EC HC choice with some bias to certain subjects.

I've always believed personal growth should not be based on trying harder after rejection, but having the opportunity to have your work seen and then critiqued to help grow faster, and that's proven invaluable for so many people over the years.



Quote: can't be bothered about anything that happens outside that little bubble. And as a result ephotozine is now exactly that... a little bubble

I wouldn't say it's a little bubble, more a very large bubble - 85% are happy with the way the gallery works. What I've always wanted is to keep that 85% happy while working a way to encourage the 15% element to grow so they join the 85% happy group.

I've always hoped those growing through and becoming excellent would stay with ePHOTOzine and so gradually the balance of quality/genres shifts.

We're always looking for ways to improve though and ideas are always welcome.

whipspeed
whipspeed e2 Member 104044 forum postswhipspeed vcard United Kingdom22 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 8:38 AM


Quote: I've always believed personal growth should not be based on trying harder after rejection, but having the opportunity to have your work seen and then critiqued to help grow faster, and that's proven invaluable for so many people over the years.

Good point and as I've said before, one that has worked very well for me. I think over the years that I've been on here, my photography has improved, especially the cycling and that is from input from other members on what I was doing right and more importantly, what I was doing wrong, either by them critiquing the shots in the gallery and also by pm and email. If I hadn't been able to get the shots on to the site in the first place for that critique don't think I would have improved as much.

Pete
Pete Site Moderator 1318450 forum postsPete vcard ePz Advertiser England96 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 8:51 AM


Quote: If I hadn't been able to get the shots on to the site in the first place for that critique don't think I would have improved as much.

It's very true...the reason behind how the gallery works was based on how we used to handle picture submissions on the magazines.
Each month sacks full of hopeful "please print my photo" or competition entries were received and returned rejected. The rejected photographers would always get a note saying thanks but no thanks, and if they were very lucky, a multi-choice why it didn't make it note. I would have liked to have written to each one and offered guidance rather than just saying better luck next time.
I thought through this gallery format we could help resolve that. And I believe it's worked, and with ECs and HCs we still have the page of brilliant photos. The trick is finding a way to expand the EC HC gallery, without compromising quality.

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