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lawbert
lawbert  71713 forum posts England15 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 7:29 PM

I shant pick the bones out of any post and just reitterate my point..(I may have spelt reitterate incorrectly but if this bothers anyone then please call my mobile and correct meTongue)

The awards on this site are few and far between and given mainly to people with extensive knowledge of thier chosen field of photography and a few grands worth of equipment to match.

I suggest a three tier structure of awards pretty much like cameras and lenses are sold as...Entry Level, Intermediate and Pro.

Im sure this could be achievable given that the site now has the exif data option which would make it bollackeriamungus (made up word...as above please call my mobile for spelling on thisTongue) easier for the guvnor (Pete) to use the technology he has implemented to apply a new system of awards.

In essence how the fook is any one gonna learn with meagre equipment to expand thier knowledge and become an HC and EC choice without a little encouragement?

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21 Apr 2011 - 7:29 PM

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Overread
Overread  63768 forum posts England18 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 8:00 PM

Not with more awards I think.

I don't think introducing a ranking system based on gear/quality of photos/years shooting/test results etc... is going to help things. In fact I think it would cause a massive nightmare for Pete and the whole team (and site).

We would have endless debates as to what constitutes a "beginner" heck I know some people who are way ahead of me and still consider that they are beginners. And with that we would have non-stop fights as people try to push others and themselves up and down in rankings as each person brings their own criteria to the table.

I think with awards its better if you keep it simple - you set a high bar and make everyone meet that bar in order to get the award. That keeps the award valued and sought after - without that aspect the awards quickly become meaningless trophies.

I do sympathies that you want to improve the inspiration and motivation to new people shooting with both good and lower end gear, but I don't think the competition/awards system is the right way to do this.

lawbert
lawbert  71713 forum posts England15 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 8:29 PM

The fights would only be in the forumsSmile which most people ignore anyway!!Wink

As it stands if youve got experience and knowledge combined with Kit then your in with a chance...But in reallity how does that help the site grow..

How does it help the learning photographer with meagre kit grow and expand thier talents and knowledge...and ultimately thier bank loan to get the kit to match the HC and EC awards.

Yup...its more work for Pete and the Team but its going in the right direction to improve everyones motivation and experiences in photography...Not Just go WOW at an EC or HC...or even GEA

The site needs to direct its efforts to encourage and award people that have put the effort in with meagre kit.....or just rest on its income and slowly fall by the wayside as new sites will inevitably appear and attract the advertisors money.Wink

Overread
Overread  63768 forum posts England18 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 8:50 PM

I disagree with your approach. Motivation and encouragement as well as assistance yes - but I don't see how giving more lower level awards is really going to help that matter given the sites current structure and social build up. I just see it as a massive headache that won't really solve anything.

Heck it might even work against your intent as now they don't have to get super good to get the award - just get moderately better and then they get the award - no pressure to move up anymore. (and that is if they care enough about the awards anyway)

StrayCat
StrayCat e2 Member 1014818 forum postsStrayCat vcard Canada2 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 9:24 PM


Quote: In essence how the fook is any one gonna learn with meagre equipment to expand thier knowledge and become an HC and EC choice without a little encouragement?

If we could get over the awards syndrome, and get on with taking pictures for our own enjoyment, with the equipment we can afford, we just might expand our knowledge, surprise! Surprise!Wink

What do the awards mean on this site anyway; they don't even say that Pete likes the photos, because many awards are given just to try to balance out the genres. Pete has stated on many occassions that he is not a fan of wildlife photography, yet he gives out lots of awards for that genre. If Pete only gave awards for images that he likes, I'm sure there would be some genres left out altogether, naturally. So, some images get awards for technical merits, but that doesn't mean they're aeshetically pleasing to the average person. Much of what I'm seeing on the site in recent times is much more accreditable to the photographers editing skills than the person's skills with a camera. After awhile, like most fads, it gets very boring, and one wonders what photography is all about these days; at least I do. Take a look through the awards galleries, and see what I'm talking about. By no means am I saying I have anything against editing one's photos; I've been around long enough to know it's a part of the process; but I think many people are crossing a line, and it's no longer photography skills that are the main criteria for judging a photo, but one's skills at creating something completely different from the original photo.

If this is the direction the majority want to go, then so be it; but when you talk about the expense of getting to a level where you might win an Epz award, you also have to include the enormous cost of the editing software, and various plugins to the total. So, not only do you have people with cheap point and shoot camera up against thousands of dollars in professional photography equipment; you also have people using free editing software to adjust colour contrast and sharpness to compete against people using thousands of dollars in professional software which allows them to completely alter any photo and make something that wasn't created by a camera and lens.

I don't know how I got into posting the above, but it's something I think about whenever I see people attaching any amount of importance to awards on this site.

Coleslaw
Coleslaw e2 Member 913403 forum postsColeslaw vcard Wales28 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 9:26 PM

Out of the first page of EC, if you are going to class them according to their equipments rather than their ability to produce good photos:
matthew - using canon 1000D! entry? I don't think so
Mr Pink? I have no idea
bunniboientry? I don't think so
Clint? He uses lots of stock photos, so maybe not even a level?
Kitsch? Still using 20D. Entry? Intermediate? She is pretty much pro in what she does.

Should James realestate be a pro according to the gear he uses? 5D or 5D2.

Pointless.

Last Modified By Coleslaw at 21 Apr 2011 - 9:27 PM
StrayCat
StrayCat e2 Member 1014818 forum postsStrayCat vcard Canada2 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 9:31 PM

So Cole, are you saying there might be some sort of quota system used when awarding members photos on here? If that's the case, the awards are even less meaningful.

Coleslaw
Coleslaw e2 Member 913403 forum postsColeslaw vcard Wales28 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 9:34 PM


Quote: So Cole, are you saying there might be some sort of quota system used when awarding members photos on here? If that's the case, the awards are even less meaningful.

No, Denny.
I am just trying to prove to Paul (lawbert) that his suggestion to 3 tiers award system based on camera gear one has is absolutely pointless.

Paul Morgan
Paul Morgan e2 Member 1315388 forum postsPaul Morgan vcard England6 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 9:37 PM


Quote: As it stands if youve got experience and knowledge combined with Kit then your in with a chance

LOl what a load of ******** as if kit would make a difference.

Even if you gave an experienced photographer a handicap, and made them shoot with digicams, they will still produce the goods.

StrayCat
StrayCat e2 Member 1014818 forum postsStrayCat vcard Canada2 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 9:40 PM

I agree Cole; as I don't put much store in awards, that idea only makes it worse.

StrayCat
StrayCat e2 Member 1014818 forum postsStrayCat vcard Canada2 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 9:43 PM


Quote: Even if you gave an experienced photographer a handicap, and made them shoot with digicams, they will still produce the goods.

Maybe in some genres of photography, but certainly not others. Take wildlife, for example; put a pro with a compact up against a person with a basic understanding of exposure and a DSLR and 500mm f4, and see what they produce.

Last Modified By StrayCat at 21 Apr 2011 - 9:45 PM
NEWMANP
NEWMANP e2 Member 61587 forum postsNEWMANP vcard United Kingdom574 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 9:44 PM

i havnt been in the gallery much recently, had a lot on my plate all round but keep popping into the critique gallery and looking at a few at a time.

because of other issues i havnt actually done a great deal of phototaking or photomaking so when i do upload which has been spasmodic, i dont get so many regulars dropping in to look and my click counts are well down. my general commenting in the gallery is way down on my normal activity.

for a variety of reasons, and mainly out of interest, i recently had a dabble on the royal photographic site with their forum and gallery to see if had anything to bring to epz.

im sure Pete would be very interested to hear that their new gallery with similar facility to ours here on epz has not had another image uploaded onto the general gallery (open to non members) for over a week and a half and prior to my picture had not seen a upload for several days.

when i asked about this i was told it was quite active thanks. the forum i can grow a beard before i get an answer. im sure it will pick up eventually.

i still think epz is the place for photographers to be and it may have ups and downs as all things do but its still the best site around. at the moment a good few members who jumped on board when i did are missing, and going through dry spells and i think these things will happen in natural cycles.

from what i have seen, seascapes have become an obsession, textures have become really professional, and mono is getting more popular among a few who are doing really high quality work. but the members are not appreciating it somehow. natura history work has moved up to studio standards and possibly entered a state of clinical sterility where perfection is detracting from the true sense of nature,

the impact thumb with golden skies still rules i think Wink

Phil

Last Modified By NEWMANP at 21 Apr 2011 - 9:49 PM
lawbert
lawbert  71713 forum posts England15 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 9:46 PM


Quote:
I am just trying to prove to Paul (lawbert) that his suggestion to 3 tiers award system based on camera gear one has is absolutely pointless.

I take your point openly and honestly Cole..

But with the site progressing and having exif data available to be monitored on thise who choose to leave it freely open to view it should be pretty damn easy to filter out genuine exif data and not genuine.

Pete has said in previous posts that he looks at every picture posted in the gallery so surely if he does this then a quick gander at the upload info wouldnt take to much more time and be encouraging to beginners and intermediates?

As for how cameras and lenses are classed I am sure that within Epz,s plethora of reviews where in many they do class the category of camera and lens it should also be achievable.

Just a bit more effort in my opinion.

Overread
Overread  63768 forum posts England18 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 9:50 PM

But photographic ability is so much more than just gear - its linked to lighting (both the use of and control of - and both natural and artificial) - subject - understanding - artistic ability

The equipment is an important part - but no less or more than the others. One might resent being called a beginner when they are doing a lot of lighting and expert composition whilst just using the cheap 50mm f1.8 on a 550D camera body.

Or what about if you have only half a years experience yet still mange to buy a 70-200mm f2.8 IS L lens -are you now experienced or intermediate because you can afford better gear?

Last Modified By Overread at 21 Apr 2011 - 9:52 PM
Coleslaw
Coleslaw e2 Member 913403 forum postsColeslaw vcard Wales28 Constructive Critique Points
21 Apr 2011 - 9:50 PM

It is not about effort of the team, nor it is about either people putting in genuine camera/lens information, Paul.
It is just not a way to judge people's ability to produce good photos.
For example, if you give Keith Henson or Joe Cornish or Colin Prior or Andy Rouse a compact camera, are you going to class them as beginners?

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