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Depressed Moi?

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CathyT
CathyT e2 Member 87253 forum postsCathyT vcard United Kingdom18 Constructive Critique Points
1 Apr 2008 - 10:23 PM


Quote: One theory is that depression is caused by any number of stress factors, stress being the operative word. One singular event or many, many small accumulative happenings which cause the hippocampus to "short circuit" (andrenaline is apparently the culprit here)...

So drugs like Prozac (incidently one of the most effective in keeping with this theory) repair the hippocampus, which is like a USB cable between the conscious and unconcious. When your hippocampus shorts, the conduit between these two states is broken and as a result you become depressed, you can't compute what happens in daily life.

Drugs like Prozac or others help to rebuild the circuit, if you like, which gradually enables you to start processing again - and you begin to get back to "normality".

Edit: Depression is not a mental illness, it is a physical illness.

and Edit again There has been considerable research into the effects of folic acid, which is generally part of a vitamin B complex...... that and omega oils. I have to say though that drugs designed specifically for the job at hand work faster.....

Stolzy knows what he's talking about.

Judi

Thats about right Judi...I'd say stress plays a big part.....and then too much pressure.

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1 Apr 2008 - 10:23 PM

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stolzy
stolzy  83753 forum posts7 Constructive Critique Points
1 Apr 2008 - 10:24 PM


Quote: mild and major depression

My fault. Major depression is the current terminology for what is usually called 'clinical depression' (as opposed to 'feeling a bit down' which everyone gets).
Major depression can be mild or severe.

lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1013937 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
1 Apr 2008 - 10:26 PM


Quote: PS.....Mods....please don't lock this thread..however heated it gets.

As long as people stick to arguing and expanding on the subject (rather than abusing each other) it should stay open Wink

Helpful Post! This post was flagged as helpful
pepperst
pepperst  62328 forum posts Wales4 Constructive Critique Points
1 Apr 2008 - 10:26 PM

Dont thing that list helped, I seem to do the opposite. Dont sleep then sleep for way to long, through my usual good diet out the window, stop exercising, keep a stiff upper lip and drown it out with wine!

Still things are better with the misses around, makes sure the above gets stamped out quickly and then I do feel better.

CathyT
CathyT e2 Member 87253 forum postsCathyT vcard United Kingdom18 Constructive Critique Points
1 Apr 2008 - 10:27 PM

I would say that with clinical depression that 1 to 7 just wouldn't be enough.......once your past the worst then its a good follow up.

When you can't conjure up enough energy to speak and all you want to do is stare at a blank wall then sleep , taking vitamins isn't really going to change anything.I knew I had always had probs with depression but I seriously thought I was going mad.

For me , I burnt out through too much stress and too much pressure.

Although I didn't take 'depression pills' i may have got better quicker if I had.Once the worst was over then I would have thought that 1 to 7 was a positive way to go.

EDIT:...I've just looked up Dothiapin which I thought were sedatives...turns out they ARE antidepressants....so I did take them for about a year.

Last Modified By CathyT at 1 Apr 2008 - 10:40 PM
Krakman
Krakman  73615 forum posts Scotland
1 Apr 2008 - 10:30 PM


Quote: It certainly helps in milder illness, but as a treatment, its not in the same league as drug therapy

Possibly, though there is some dispute about that at the moment - bit of a hot topic re the drugs manufacturers concealing unfavourable clinical trials etc.

I guess people should choose every method that they are able/have the strength to do, and see what works for them. My own personal observations (two people) were that the pills seriously screwed around with the head and the only good thing about them was throwing them away. That of course is not a clinical trial, and others shouldn't base their judgements on it because thy might work for them, but I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole except possibly as a last resort after being locked up.

In those two cases, the issues were resolved eventually, I hope, by dealing with the fundamental causes.

From a common sense perspective, it seems to me that exercise, healthy eating etc are going to help as much as anything else. Partly because one of the main causes is (I understand) exhaustion. Eating, sleeping and exercising seems to be a way to help get out of that.

Last Modified By Krakman at 1 Apr 2008 - 10:35 PM
gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 92218 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
1 Apr 2008 - 10:50 PM


Quote: Rather juvenile response.
Exercise is quite effective in mild depression, I never said otherwise. It is not 'one of the best means' to treat major depression.

I've tried the adult approach - it doesn't seem to work. My arguments require a reponse - for fully-rounded human beings - not your typical default position of combative one-up-man-ship. This is a serious subject and demands serious consideration to all sides of the argument. You may be an expert but there are many other experts who would argue against your position.
Yes, we should be interested in what you have to say but at the same time we should recognise there are other serious challenges to medical science and the drugs industry that need addressing.
I've heard and read plenty of evidence from patients themselves stating that they were nearly driven to suicide by certain drugs like Prozac. Others have according to friends or relatives or the media, actually killed themselves due to drug treatment. Surely it is irresponsible to ignore such evidence.
We should not be worried about who is right or who is wrong here. We should be asking what is right and what is wrong. (And who is benefiting so much from the drugs industry apart from the patients?)

Garth

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 109966 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
1 Apr 2008 - 10:54 PM


Quote: You need to go back and read what I actually said. If you can't be bothered, you can read my later post above.

Stolzy, I have read (and reviewed) every word you have written in this thread and have spotted several instances of you making negative statements to contradict the points of others (without relevant supporting references). Then, when others have refuted your points (with the relevant references) you shift your ground and attack on another front.

As I say, I respect your knowledge and most often agree with your arguments but in this thread, at times, you have just been plain wrong.

Its too important a subject to a lot of us who have or who are suffering from clinical depression to allow one person's view to dominate the more reasoned debate.

The science is conflicted and confused but there are clear points of agreement on the causes (triggers) for clinical depression and the factors (genetic and otherwise) that predispose some more than others to depression - these you have either ignored or attempted to denigrate in your argument - not good science (but as I say, a typical approach of the academic)

I'll shut up now as I clearly wasting my time attempting to get you to see that there are other equally valid viewpoints to those you put.

I just hope that you manage to steer clear of this problem in your future - from your writings here I see a lot of my "Younger Self"

Without heat or anger - goodnight

Last Modified By brian1208 at 1 Apr 2008 - 10:56 PM
CathyT
CathyT e2 Member 87253 forum postsCathyT vcard United Kingdom18 Constructive Critique Points
1 Apr 2008 - 11:03 PM

Perhaps some pills work for some people and some pills don't work for some....

I was given Seroxat and it didn't agree with me......Dothiapin got me through the worst...the rest was grit , determination and changing my life.

Do you think the OP is still reading this??

It would be good to get some definite guide lines from Stolzy...the do's and don't and what exactly is the cause of depression..

Last Modified By CathyT at 1 Apr 2008 - 11:08 PM
p3asa
p3asa  8676 forum posts Scotland
1 Apr 2008 - 11:06 PM


Quote:

By getting hold of studies that the manufacturers had deliberately suppressed, researchers at Hull University in the UK have finally discovered that Prozac and other pills are no more effective than a sugar pill, or placebo.
Powers granted by freedom of information legislation in the USA had to be used to get hold of 47 trials on SSRI (serotonin selective reuptake inhibitors) drugs, such as Prozac, which had not been published.

Sorry to offer this latest contradictory information, but my own experience with depression is that pills are not the answer. There is no easy answer but I would emphasize again trying make yourself exercise and try and keep communicating with friends and family.
I don't think we understand drepression very well at all (me included) because I suspect it is linked with the complex matrix that is our unique personal history and past experiences. Maybe we need to understand the 'soul', if there is any such thing, in order to understand depression.
There is no harm in talking to a doctor - that will probably do more good than pills - it depends on the doctor.

Garth

Sorry but I find your advice regarding antidepressants no better than a sugar pill quite alarming. I don't know your particular circumstances but yes maybe they weren't effective for you / someone you know but that doesn't mean they aren't effective for other folk.

Having been a psychiatric nurse for 23 years I have seen literally thousands of people getting better on antidepressants. How do I know it wasn't just a placebo effect? Because you can see subtle differences in people that they can't see themselves. There is no way a placebo would act like this especially when this is maybe the 2nd or 3rd type of antidepressant a patient has tried. Granted there has been folk and always will be folk that are drug resistant but various different types of antidepressants must be tried before folk can be given that tag.

I tell my patients that life is a bit like cycling a bike and when you get depression, you fall off that bike. By taking antidepressants this allows you to get back on the bike and get your balance back enabling you to try and get pedalling again.

Doesn't help all the time but sometimes just visualizing that is enough for the patient to grasp.

Steven.

pepperst
pepperst  62328 forum posts Wales4 Constructive Critique Points
1 Apr 2008 - 11:09 PM

Prob been scared off as usual.

Scared of pills me, had a bit of a whity when I was younger, took my years to even take paracetamol or ibofrofian (sic).

CathyT
CathyT e2 Member 87253 forum postsCathyT vcard United Kingdom18 Constructive Critique Points
1 Apr 2008 - 11:12 PM


Quote: It would be good to get some definite guide lines from Stolzy...the do's and don't and what exactly is the cause of depression eg are you born with it??..

p3asa...is there any chance you could answer this??

Last Modified By CathyT at 1 Apr 2008 - 11:13 PM
gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 92218 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
1 Apr 2008 - 11:13 PM


Quote: Quote:You need to go back and read what I actually said. If you can't be bothered, you can read my later post above.Stolzy, I have read (and reviewed) every word you have written in this thread and have spotted several instances of you making negative statements to contradict the points of others (without relevant supporting references). Then, when others have refuted your points (with the relevant references) you shift your ground and attack on another front.

As I say, I respect your knowledge and most often agree with your arguments but in this thread, at times, you have just been plain wrong.

Its too important a subject to a lot of us who have or who are suffering from clinical depression to allow one person's view to dominate the more reasoned debate.

The science is conflicted and confused but there are clear points of agreement on the causes (triggers) for clinical depression and the factors (genetic and otherwise) that predispose some more than others to depression - these you have either ignored or attempted to denigrate in your argument - not good science (but as I say, a typical approach of the academic)

I'll shut up now as I clearly wasting my time attempting to get you to see that there are other equally valid viewpoints to those you put.

I just hope that you manage to steer clear of this problem in your future - from your writings here I see a lot of my "Younger Self"

Without heat or anger - goodnight

Well said, Brian. I fully endorse everything you said there (including 'without heat or anger - goodnight' )

Garth

Consulo
Consulo  9762 forum posts Scotland9 Constructive Critique Points
1 Apr 2008 - 11:28 PM

Whilst I agree that depression is a disease, I'd dispute the viewpoint of the person (sorry, forgot who you were) who said that depression is not caused by factors such as bereavement etc.

I've suffered a few bouts of depression. First one was in 2004 and was pretty awful. Thankfully I have a wonderful family and I sought help pretty quickly. The two recurring bouts have been minor in comparison to that first episode, but it's never nice.

My own personal battle has been brought on entirely by life events, of that I have absolutely no doubt. Little things chipping away compounded by bigger things led to my first walk with the black dog.

I accept that there are varying degrees of depression and that what is the cause of it for one sufferer is not the trigger for another. To discount one or a multitude of causes because they 'don't fit the science' though is absolutely absurd.

I risk going off on a philosophical tangent, but this view held by a lot of people on the rigidity and vigour of the scientific process and its findings is troubling. Research and results are often very prejudiced, and it can be difficult to find out the 'truth' (if such a thing exists) about a lot of subjects, especially as one as murky as as mental illness, which is quite unquantifiable.

And whilst I don't wish to start throwing slurs around (that's not my intention), I think we would all do well not to take anything an 'expert' in a field says as 100% gospel truth. The problem with most (perhaps not all, but most) people who are authorites on specific subjects is that they become very dogmatic in their views and become, for want of a better phrase, self-styled masters-of-the-universe in their subject.

The 'beginner's mind' of Zen is something that I feel we should all try to retain, and a subject such as depression benefits from this viewpoint.

Krakman
Krakman  73615 forum posts Scotland
1 Apr 2008 - 11:39 PM


Quote: I tell my patients that life is a bit like cycling a bike and when you get depression, you fall off that bike. By taking antidepressants this allows you to get back on the bike and get your balance back enabling you to try and get pedalling again.

My (highly un-scientific) observation of a friend who had an extreme case was that the pills (I don't know what they were) seemed to act as a kind of anaesthetic - they stopped the patient from giving a damn about anything whatsoever - on the surface at least. From the psychiatrist's point of view, that was regarded as a success. Deeper down, I don't think they actually helped - or rather, they both helped and hindered at the same time. The helping bit was they completely knocked her out for 2 or 3 months so that she couldn't do anything, which perhaps helped recovery phyisically. She was also locked up in psychiatric hospital for the first few weeks, so it wasn't just the pills forcing her to rest.

But I believe the messing with the brain also put her in a deeper state of despair and demoralisation (so did being locked up for that matter), which I don't think was ultimately a positive thing. Not giving a damn about anything included life, and took many months to wear off even after finishing taking the pills. She only seemed to be really recovering some months after giving the pills up, and by dealing with the root causes of the depression which, so far as I could make out were (1) exhaustion combined with (2) deep personal dissatisfaction with her situation in life.

I think ultimately the pills' impact was negative. It was all a bit 1984, numbing part of the consciousness. I think the doctors chalked them up as a success, though they actually took quite a humble approach to the issue and didn't claim to have all the answers.

Having said that, I think others should probably give them a go. But they should be prepared to suspend their lives and do their best to accept the fact that feeling like poo and not a human being is a function of the pills and try not to top themselves in the meantime.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I guess we all go on our own observations in life, combined to listening, with a healthy dose of scepticism, to what the doctors are telling us.

Last Modified By Krakman at 1 Apr 2008 - 11:44 PM

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