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DalesLass
DalesLass e2 Member 22042 forum postsDalesLass vcard United Kingdom
21 Jan 2014 - 1:21 PM

Hi, I wonder if anyone has attended one of the Permajet printing workshop and if so how good they found it.

Having been a member of a camera for a couple of years now I regularly print images for competitions but always struggle to get the printed image to look as it does on the screen! I use printer profiles for whatever paper I'm printing on, but I still don't manage to achieve what I'm after without a great deal of tweaking and a fair bit of wasted ink and paper Sad

We have a Canon 9500 mark II so it's a decent enough printer. Though on the downside it does seem to eat ink and as it's expensive to buy you really don't want to be wasting it on failed attempts at getting your image to look the way you want it. My monitor is calibrated regularly, so I don't think this is the problem.

Permajet work with Epsom, but they do say they also cover Canon on their courses. I'm based in the East Midlands and I'm struggling to find any other workshops that offer the same thing, at a reasonable price, in this area. So pointer to any would be much appriiciated Smile

Thanks for reading,

Jude

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21 Jan 2014 - 1:21 PM

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Calumet do in-house printing workshops and there's one on in Birmingham next month - see here

DalesLass
DalesLass e2 Member 22042 forum postsDalesLass vcard United Kingdom
21 Jan 2014 - 2:25 PM


Quote: Calumet do in-house printing workshops and there's one on in Birmingham next month - see here

That sounds interesting ~ many thanks for the link.

AlanTW
AlanTW  11342 forum posts
21 Jan 2014 - 3:21 PM

I attended the Permajet workshop last year and found it excellent. As you say they use Epson printers in the workshops but the colour management principles taught are applicable to all printers. Obviously there is heavy emphasis on using Permajet papers and have them for sale at a discount during the workshop.
I attended the course in Dumfries but I believe they also run then in Stratford-upon-Avon

Alan

DalesLass
DalesLass e2 Member 22042 forum postsDalesLass vcard United Kingdom
21 Jan 2014 - 3:41 PM

Many thanks for alan. I guess they would push their own papers, but I quite like them so that's not a problem. Nice to get a bit of feedback from someones whose been.

Many thanks Smile

Dave_Canon
21 Jan 2014 - 4:28 PM

As I organise courses at my own camera club, I do keep tabs on other courses and we have had the odd member attend a Permajet course. Their courses are presented by well known and successful amateur photographers and I have heard excellent reports from those attending. However, the cost is 5 to 10 times more than our Club training. If you do colour manage correctly and use a good printer, paper and ink, you should obtain consistent results. You mention that you waste paper/ink but you can avoid that if you use the Proof Colours facility on Lightroom. This enables you to view a simulation of what the image will look like when printed. You can then use LR Basic editing controls to tweak the image until the Proof version looks acceptable. LR will save a proof copy so does not alter the original image. However, this still relies on you operating full colour management. I have occasionally had to reprint because I failed to notice a distracting object etc. but not because of colour or tone. You can never get exactly the same in a Print as Monitor as one is reflected light and the other emitted light so prints will always look a little duller.

Dave

Helpful Post! This post was flagged as helpful
DalesLass
DalesLass e2 Member 22042 forum postsDalesLass vcard United Kingdom
21 Jan 2014 - 5:03 PM


Quote: As I organise courses at my own camera club, I do keep tabs on other courses and we have had the odd member attend a Permajet course. Their courses are presented by well known and successful amateur photographers and I have heard excellent reports from those attending. However, the cost is 5 to 10 times more than our Club training. If you do colour manage correctly and use a good printer, paper and ink, you should obtain consistent results. You mention that you waste paper/ink but you can avoid that if you use the Proof Colours facility on Lightroom. This enables you to view a simulation of what the image will look like when printed. You can then use LR Basic editing controls to tweak the image until the Proof version looks acceptable. LR will save a proof copy so does not alter the original image. However, this still relies on you operating full colour management. I have occasionally had to reprint because I failed to notice a distracting object etc. but not because of colour or tone. You can never get exactly the same in a Print as Monitor as one is reflected light and the other emitted light so prints will always look a little duller.

Dave

Many thanks for that it makes very interesting reading!

Having been mostly self taught in LR I am now working my way through Scott Kelby's book because I am sure there is so much I don't know and my not discover on my own…..

I have yet to reach the chapter on printing (I think I may well skip ahead to it now!). I have tended to avoid printing from LR as I was advised by a professional photographer, a year or more ago now, that LR did not handle the job very well. But as I am not handling it very well in PS it may well be time to give it a try!

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110235 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
21 Jan 2014 - 5:41 PM


Quote: I have tended to avoid printing from LR as I was advised by a professional photographer, a year or more ago now, that LR did not handle the job very well

Once you learn how to use any software to best effect it should provide you with good quality prints

I use LR exclusively for my printing for sales and competition work as that's what I got to work best for me first and I now have a set routine which always gives the results I expect.

That's not saying its best for this purpose as others I know use one or more different packages, some having separate packages for B&W and colour etc and produce stunning results

In my view, the trick is to find one that you can easily understand and which gives you the results you need and stick with it

(I haven't had to reprint an image because the colour came out wrong for over 5 years but, as Dave said, I have had a few where the printed image showed a fault that wasn't obvious on screen Smile )

Last Modified By brian1208 at 21 Jan 2014 - 5:41 PM
DalesLass
DalesLass e2 Member 22042 forum postsDalesLass vcard United Kingdom
21 Jan 2014 - 6:34 PM

Thanks for that Brian. I will give LR printing a try.

I find it's not just colours that come out wrong often it's that images come out much darker than expected. I know that viewing on a monitor images are backlit and so bright and vibrant, but the difference often seems more than I'd expect.

I will see what happens with LR after reading the appropriate chapter in the book!

Jude

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110235 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
21 Jan 2014 - 7:27 PM


Quote: I find it's not just colours that come out wrong often it's that images come out much darker than expected

In my experience (I help a lot in my club with their printing and calibration) this is a result of having the brightness and colour temperature of the monitor too high

When I get the system right they usually complain that the screen is now too dark (but they do like the fact hat they now get what they see on screen, accepting the usual difference between projected image on screen vs reflected light image on print)

Last Modified By brian1208 at 21 Jan 2014 - 7:28 PM
DalesLass
DalesLass e2 Member 22042 forum postsDalesLass vcard United Kingdom
21 Jan 2014 - 8:07 PM


Quote: In my experience this is a result of having the brightness and colour temperature of the monitor too high

I did wonder about this as I recently read somewhere, can't remember where, that if your prints are constantly too dark then your monitor is too bright!

What might seem like a silly question though ~ does calibration not set the brightness of your screen in addition to sorting the colours?

GlennH
GlennH  91918 forum posts France1 Constructive Critique Points
22 Jan 2014 - 7:57 AM


Quote: What might seem like a silly question though ~ does calibration not set the brightness of your screen in addition to sorting the colours?

Not usually. It addresses gamma (tone response curve), so it can make mid-tones look lighter or darker in non-colour-managed apps (e.g. Windows desktop), but the brightest areas of the monitor always remain unaltered. You have to physically turn the brightness down using OSD controls normally.

Some calibration packages will allow you to set a target luminance, providing feedback as to how bright the screen is in candelas per square metre, whilst cheaper calibration packages skip this altogether and just profile your monitor 'as is' without touching brightness at all.

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DalesLass
DalesLass e2 Member 22042 forum postsDalesLass vcard United Kingdom
22 Jan 2014 - 8:36 AM

Thanks for that Glenn. These things can be so mind boggling at times Smile

Quo_Vadis
Quo_Vadis  1 United Kingdom
22 Jan 2014 - 1:39 PM

It's really important to make sure that you have the correct profile/printer combination for the specific media/printer you're using. I have the same printer - Canon Pro9500 Mk2 and it's superb, but make sure you get the exact profile for that printer. I print onto Hahnemuhle paper & managed to get a complete set of profiles from my supplier, not just for the paper, but for the paper in conjunction with my printer. Once you've done that there should be very little problem with your output. Certainly, my clients, including professional photographers, absolutely love the prints I do for them.

Steve-T
Steve-T  751 forum posts England66 Constructive Critique Points
23 Jan 2014 - 12:18 AM


Quote: These things can be so mind boggling at times Smile

Very true. It took me ages to get my head around it but now I have a home set up that works well for me. Once I understood more about the process of colour management I realised that my weak link was the quality of my monitor. Even though it was calibrated for colour it was hard to accurately assess the brightness and contrast which led to many failed prints.

You might find this useful:

http://www.colourcollective.co.uk/dzyt652t/Practical_Colour_Management.pdf

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