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mikehit
mikehit  56490 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
17 Dec 2012 - 3:46 PM


Quote: Awesome. So its confirmed i have a degree in snobbery and work in a snobbish fashion, sell my work in a snobbish gallery (to snobs, i guess?) and have snobbish exhibitions. Or is it just fine art photography that classed in such a way?


to quote yourself:
"It is, to some, a class thing too. Some are happy to justify the cost of art if they claim it as fine art, while some others will term it as being pretentious"

So 'pretentious' to me fits the bill. Wink

Last Modified By mikehit at 17 Dec 2012 - 3:47 PM
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17 Dec 2012 - 3:46 PM

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chris.maddock
17 Dec 2012 - 4:10 PM

To me, it's a term frequently used by people who want to try and enhance the marketability of their work, implying by using the term that theirs is better than anyone else's. Frequently, of course, it's not but they think it sounds better. An enhancement is when people also drop in the word "Giclée" when all they really mean is "ink-jet".

If one wishes to use the term for their work one should not forget the icing on the cake, therefore should also include the words "an eclectic collection of...."

WinkWinkWink

Mind you, that's only my opinion and I'm a self-confesses artistic heathen - if it has to be explained what a work of so-called art is, as far as I'm concerned it ain't art Wink

Last Modified By chris.maddock at 17 Dec 2012 - 4:13 PM
paulcookphotography

Yes mike, and those who look on at as a class thing are just as ignorant about it as those who see fine art as snobbish and pretentious. I have attempted to give an explanation to the original question based on my studies of fine art, but if the general consensus is to ignore that and describe any work that comes from those who have studied art and tuned their skills and talents to produce their work as 'pretentious and snobbish' then I guess my expectations and view of ephotozine and it's members is really misjudged

paulcookphotography


Quote: . An enhancement is when people also drop in the word "Giclée" when all they really mean is "ink-jet".


Of course, because all Giclée works are really just ink-jet prints on cheap paper anyway

It really is a wonder why anyone gets involved in the arts these days. Its either a case of you are ripping people off, pretentious, or just rubbish for no other reason than being an artist... Or as it seems, all of the above

mikehit
mikehit  56490 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
17 Dec 2012 - 4:32 PM

I once read someone who described 'fine art' (in the common parlance) as art presented to a high standard and prepared with a long lifespan - maybe buying a quality product in aspects other than the subject. To me this is all about perception, aspiration and desirability, and is no different to describing a car as 'luxury', visiting a restaurant as 'fine dining' or buying a wine as a 'fine wine'. All meaningless words but you just know what they mean when you hear it. The same view that calls 'fine art' pretentious would surely also lead to a bottle of 2005 Petrus as pretentious.



Quote: Or is it just fine art photography that classed in such a way?

I think so. I am pretty sure it is still tainted by that innate feeling that photography is 'so easy' compared to painting or sculpture that you cannot justify the expense of a quality print.

paulcookphotography

Ok, so take the same ingredients to a local pub and a michelin star restaurant and have them make a meal. Even suggest that they make something as simple as fish and chips.

Now, both meals may taste great, and remember, they have the same ingredients. But in all likelihood, the dish from the pub will be a presented as fish and chips. The meal from the restaurant will more than likely be prepared and presented in a more considered and artistic way, and therefore gets the 'luxury' title. Is that pretentious? Is the trained chef pretentious? Or are the people going to the restaurant pretentious as they could get the same ingredients on a plate at the pub down the road for (probably) cheaper? Or should we all just eat down the pub or takeaway and burn anything that might be classed as 'luxury'

mikehit
mikehit  56490 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
17 Dec 2012 - 5:32 PM

I'm just observing that when people buy food, wine, cars or art there is a level at which they are buying an image or an aspiration. They are not buying only the main product.
I have eaten food on a street stall in Bangkok with the subtlety of flavour that would (to me) grace any city restaurant. And all for £2. I will also happily pay £15 for that meal in the UK because I am buying more than just the meal: the surroundings, the presentation, the atmoshpere etc.

To bend your metaphor a bit: the photographer could present the same picture as a 10x8 print on a market stall as a loose print done on a Epson multifunction printer. Or they can print on canvas at 20x18 framed and signed and charge disproportionatley more. It is the same picture and they serve different purposes, and the same photo may well sell better in one form than in the other.

As I mentioned above, I am sure that 'fine art' is one of those things that you know it when you see it and is very difficult to describe as an entity. And if I see something defined as 'fine art' my preconceptions are about quality of product and not the subject matter.


Regards Giclee (fromWikipedia):

Quote: The word giclée was created by Jack Duganne, a printmaker working at Nash Editions. He wanted a name for the new type of prints they were producing on the IRIS printer, a large-format, high-resolution industrial prepress proofing inkjet printer they had adapted for fine-art printing. He was specifically looking for a word that would not have the negative connotations of "inkjet" or "computer generated". It is based on the French word gicleur, which means "nozzle" (the verb form gicler means "to squirt, spurt, or spray").

The name originally applied to fine art prints created on IRIS printers in a process invented in the late 1980s but has since come to mean any inkjet print. It is often used by artists, galleries, and print shops to denote high quality printing but since it is an unregulated word it has no associated warranty of quality

To me, the creation of such words to create an image it is the pretentious part of it. Not the product itself.

Sooty_1
Sooty_1 Critique Team 41207 forum posts United Kingdom198 Constructive Critique Points
17 Dec 2012 - 5:35 PM

But to continue your analogy, only chefs that are highly trained gain Michelin stars. Therefore they are not run of the mill pub chefs. But large quantities of pretentious photographers (and artists of other mediums) call their work fine art, who are largely pub chef standard. Perfectly adequate, but not Michelin starred fine artists.

And if, using the same ingredients, they produce the same meal, just dressed up more, is that not similar to an ordinary photograph (artwork) in a fancy frame? Or are you saying that fine art is just ordinary art "dressed up"?

Using terms such as "luxury" etc in this context can be misleading, because a piece of art considered better than most is a concept that is purely subjective, and is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it.

Personally, I don't believe you're qualification is worthless, but what makes your art course into a fine art course? Are you saying a fine art degree is better than an art degree? That artists are less considered than fine artists? because that is the impression I get from the hostility and sarcasm when it's implied that is not the case.

paulcookphotography

Works flip side Mike. Who is to say its not actually a high quality giclee printed on a high quality professional printer on specialist papers or canvas?

That's what I find irritating. Anything that is described as a little different or luxury or high quality is now pretentious. What if we just go round and ridicule snapshots and beginners and those trying to learn? Thought not

Jestertheclown
17 Dec 2012 - 5:42 PM


Quote: Are you saying a fine art degree is better than an art degree?

Just as a matter of interest, what does having an 'art degree' or a 'fine art degree,' for that matter, actually qualify you to do?
In other words, where does one of these degrees slot you into the workplace; what kind of job does it qualify you to do?
With degrees these days being two a penny, a degree in anything slightly non-specific, which this must be, since no-one here can pin it down, can't be much use at the JobCentre.

Jestertheclown
17 Dec 2012 - 5:44 PM


Quote: What if we just go round and ridicule snapshots and beginners and those trying to learn?

I've seen it happen on here.

paulcookphotography

Artists are artists. I don't really see a distinction between an artist and a fine artist. What may differ is that an artist can produce something that shows a trained and applied skill to the movement of their brush or how they creatively posed and lit a subject for example, this taking it out of the wider art category and into fine art. An art degree is different to a fine art degree, not better or worse, but a different study. I also studied a degree in visual media and animation, and don't look at that as being any less of a degree. It's not a competition. The only ones who see that are the ones on the outside calling names.

With regards to the food analogy, I wasn't comparing it to fine art, but to judge what exactly was seen as pretentious. Printing something on good paper and presenting it in a nice frame is not art. It's the work that goes into creating the image. The frame may be luxury, but I don't think luxury is a term easily applied to art. Everyone has their own tastes, obviously, but there is a big difference between aesthetics and technical quality (in art or otherwise)

paulcookphotography


Quote: Are you saying a fine art degree is better than an art degree?
Just as a matter of interest, what does having an 'art degree' or a 'fine art degree,' for that matter, actually qualify you to do?
In other words, where does one of these degrees slot you into the workplace; what kind of job does it qualify you to do?
With degrees these days being two a penny, a degree in anything slightly non-specific, which this must be, since no-one here can pin it down, can't be much use at the JobCentre.

An art degree can lead to jobs is galleries and museums in area like research, appraisal and restoration, acquisition etc. It can also lead to working for and with media and other arts. You could also move into teaching art itself, and a whole load of other occupations. Similarly it could mean a job in McDonald's like any other degree.

For myself, it eventually led to me setting up my own digital art and photography business where I work with various clients in advertising, media and music, as well as exhibiting my work through various galleries and selling some of my art in permanent gallery outlets and taking private commissions

Last Modified By paulcookphotography at 17 Dec 2012 - 6:03 PM
paulbroad
paulbroad  781 forum posts United Kingdom854 Constructive Critique Points
17 Dec 2012 - 6:10 PM

All good stuff. The end product is we have no idea in my opinion. I'm sure you are a cracking photographer, Paul, but when you did your degree, who said the fine art you studied was actually fine art. Whoever it was, it was there opinion only.

Basically, there is no such thing, and that is why I was being cynical. There is JUST art. And the appeal of that art is only in the eye of the beholder. Remember my earlier comment on how the young lady went from failing her photography degree, then retaking to get a 2:1. On her own admission she researched what the examiners liked to see, then pandered to those likes. A fail becomes a pass!

What does that prove? It proves she was clever enough to be sneaky, and good luck to her, you need to be sneaky to get on in life. Talent is less important.

Paul

keith selmes
17 Dec 2012 - 6:12 PM


Quote: With degrees these days being two a penny,

about one for £30K actually

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