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Fine Art


paulbroad 7 89 879 United Kingdom
17 Dec 2012 6:28PM
Mine cost very little. My employer paid, but refused to pay for me to continue with a doctorate, so I decided to earn money rather than become a academic.

As we should in this discussion, I've just had a look at your gallery, Paul. You are indeed a very accomplished worker and your technique and ideas are superb. Would I put them on my wall? About 10% of them. The rest are just too far out in content for me. So, is being unconventional fine art? (ISIS, for example, would go on my wall.)

No idea. The problem for someone like me is 68 years old and a career in photography which, at the higher end, was mostly industrial. I was not a photographer, but a production manager, but because of my interests I was often asked to take images for record, leaflets, magazines and so on. I was used rather than an external professional because I knew what was required without prompting and had the safety clearance to go into areas we could not have let third parties into without training.

Treatment of the type you excel at would not have gone down well when photographing a steel roll stand in operation. My boss usually said my offerings were fine, but he didn't mean fine art. I don't think, anyway.

Paul

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17 Dec 2012 6:32PM

Quote:I'm sure you are a cracking photographer, Paul, but when you did your degree, who said the fine art you studied was actually fine art. Whoever it was, it was there opinion only.


My degree was not in photography, and i actually only really took a serious look at photography as a result of the visual media and animation in my other degree. The art i produced for my fine art degree was in sculpture, inks and oils.

With regards to the art we studied being an opinion, well, perhaps. But not really the opinion of one lecturer or tutor. Mostly through the views of the art world. I wouldnt say i liked all the works we studied (probably less than half), but thats not really the point. No such thing as fine art though? Ok, if you say so
17 Dec 2012 6:37PM

Quote: So, is being unconventional fine art?

Paul



Not really, although i would say unconventional is quite often what gets noticed at the moment, or conceptual art i guess. But its more about the techniques and processes than how it fits in with tradition or the 'norm'.
mikehit e2
5 7.1k 11 United Kingdom
17 Dec 2012 6:54PM

Quote: Artists are artists. I don't really see a distinction between an artist and a fine artist. What may differ is that an artist can produce something that shows a trained and applied skill to the movement of their brush or how they creatively posed and lit a subject for example, this taking it out of the wider art category and into fine art.


Thats where many people have a problem with terms such as 'fine art'- when I see a picture I really don't care how long it took to produce. My only criterion is 'do I like it' and a skilled training will make it more likely that someone will produce an aesthetically pleasing image. And unfortuantely many people now abuse the term and that is where the cynicism comes in.


Looking at 'fine art photography' on Wikipedia:


Quote:Photojournalism and fine art photography overlapped beginning in the "late 1960s and 1970s, when... news photographers struck up liaisons with art photography and painting". In 1974 the International Center of Photography opened, with emphases on both "humanitarian photojournalism" and "art photography". By 1987, "pictures that were taken on assignments for magazines and newspapers now regularly reappear[ed] - in frames - on the walls of museums and galleries".

So what is fine art photography again?
LVanDhal 2 126 1 United Kingdom
17 Dec 2012 9:19PM
There is a certain degree of willful ignorance going on here, The arts are divided in to differing disciplines for the purpose of academic study.
There is no singular degree in Art, there are degrees in Graphic Art, Applied Art, Fine Art, ect, each is its own area of specialization but is not governed by a law that states no graphic artist may use any technique from any other area of art.
A graphic artist may produce a work that deserves the heading fine art, a Fine art artist may produce a work that is in essence a graphic, but that does not invalidate either.
A Gas engineer and an Electrical engineer are both engineers but do they do the same thing ? and if they don't is the Gas engineer any "Better" than the Electrical one on the basis that you need an Engineer but refuse to acknowledged that not all Engineers are the same.
Would the argument hold any worth if it was extended by an analogy that an Engineer once ripped off an old lady for thousands of pounds to service her boiler, so Engineers are not to be trusted, none of them, because deep down they are all liars.


It is really quite offensive to apply insulting terms like snobbish and pretentious to a subject then fail to back it up with any kind of example other than personal taste, that is just bigotry.
Are we really all "sneaky" because the only way I and anyone else i know has passed any exam, is by showing the examiners what they liked!
If anyone really wants to know what Fine Art Photography is and i mean Really, then go do a course, because there have been enough patient explanations given here on this thread to satisfy any passing curiosity., and debate is not possible if those opposed don't have any salient points to raise.
iancrowson e2
4 211 129 United Kingdom
17 Dec 2012 10:47PM
Snobbish it an expression used to describe someone who thinks they are better in some way than the common masses. It's not an insult, it's just a way labelling someone who often looks down on the common masses without being any better themselves.
Snobs therefore can often be lead, by clever sales/marketing ploys, into buying products and paying inflated prices. Most of us are inclined to pay over the odds for stuff due to being conditioned by marketing.
The word fine when applied to photos, paintings, art, wine or food is a marketing expression. Someone produces a work of art, most of the common masses don't understand it because there is nothing to understand but the pretentious pretend.
Ian
brian1208 e2
11 10.6k 12 United Kingdom
17 Dec 2012 10:52PM

Quote:Someone produces a work of art, most of the common masses don't understand it because there is nothing to understand but the pretentious pretend.


which, in itself, could be considered a pretentious statement for saying - they like something I dont! Wink

Why can't we just accept that we all see things differently and get on with life instead of this constant sniping?
iancrowson e2
4 211 129 United Kingdom
17 Dec 2012 11:03PM
I' not directing any thing at anybody.. Just offering a possible explanation of what snobbish and pretentious mean. If I was a pro photographer keen to sell quality images I' m sure I would label my pics fine art. It's a fact that people will pay more for what they perceive as being 'better'.
Ian
779HOB 2 1.1k United Kingdom
18 Dec 2012 8:02AM

Quote:It's not an insult, it's just a way labelling someone who often looks down on the common masses without being any better themselves.


That sounds like a Tory MP defending the use of the word pleb! I don't think I have ever heard the word snob not used as an insult. The same with the word pretentious.
mikehit e2
5 7.1k 11 United Kingdom
18 Dec 2012 8:41AM

Quote: I don't think I have ever heard the word snob not used as an insult. The same with the word pretentious.


So how do you describe someone who (in ian's words) "...thinks they are better in some way than the common masses. "
The word 'snob' is purely descriptive of a personalty type.
brian1208 e2
11 10.6k 12 United Kingdom
18 Dec 2012 8:55AM
deluded, right, better, anything you like so long as they aren't bigger than you? Grin

(Then again, if you think they are wrong, why not just ignore them?)
iancrowson e2
4 211 129 United Kingdom
18 Dec 2012 9:08AM

Quote:
I don't think I have ever heard the word snob not used as an insult. The same with the word pretentious.


These two expressions may be taken by some to be insulting. Please be assured that i am most certainly not directing them at anyone here in this forum.
Pretentious is not a word I would ever use, too long and pretentious for me!!! Plebs like me need a term like snobbish to try and fight back.
Unfortunately I could not possibly label my pics as Fine Art even if I fully understood what it meant.
Good topic Paul, have enjoyed reading your answers.
Ian
779HOB 2 1.1k United Kingdom
18 Dec 2012 9:20AM

Quote:"...thinks they are better in some way than the common masses. " The word 'snob' is purely descriptive of a personalty type.


I agree it's a decriptive word and one that is generally seen, even in your example, as a negative. Can you come up with a sentance that uses the word snob to describle someone in a positive way?


Quote:Plebs like me need a term like snobbish to try and fight back.


Therefore used in a negative or insulting way.
User_Removed 5 4.6k 1 Scotland
18 Dec 2012 9:41AM

Quote:Can you come up with a sentance that uses the word snob to describe someone in a positive way?

.



"The plebs all thought he was an unreconstructed ****** but, in reality, he was just a genial snob."

Wink
mikehit e2
5 7.1k 11 United Kingdom
18 Dec 2012 9:52AM

Quote:
I agree it's a decriptive word and one that is generally seen, even in your example, as a negative. Can you come up with a sentance that uses the word snob to describle someone in a positive way?




That is a false dichotomy: I have called a friend a 'snob' before as a simple statement of fact and they have agreed with me. So while it may not be positive, it has not been insulting.
To me, an insult is intended to demean somebody whereas a description of a 'negative'characteristic is just that. Otherwise, any negative observation about someone becomes and insult( calling someone a 'bully', or observing that someone has 'low attentive skills').

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