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Getting Rid of Ghastly "Milky Water"

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whipspeed
whipspeed e2 Member 104040 forum postswhipspeed vcard United Kingdom22 Constructive Critique Points
13 Dec 2011 - 2:39 PM

From what I have seen of camera club judges over the past few years, most seem to go on personal taste rather than judging the image. They all seem to like to mention what could be done in photoshop and when you look at their work you realise that they have no idea how to use it.

In our camera clubs last competition, one of my shots that did well on here was dismissed, not because of the photo, nothing was said about that, the only comment was that the mount was too small. Now on an 8"x8" print, I think a 3" wide mount works quite well. But some judge 100's of years ago had said to him that small prints need huge mounts and so that's what he says. I might as well have put a blank piece of paper in the middle of the mount.

I've got fed up of the comments I hear on both mine and other peoples images & have now stopped entering. I get better more reasoned feedback on here.

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13 Dec 2011 - 2:39 PM

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icphoto
icphoto  131422 forum posts England
13 Dec 2011 - 3:53 PM

Blinkered comments just about sums up CC judges!! Come on get real, next they will be telling us to use a 10x8 and wet plates! It does not matter a jot as what equipment or shutter speed someone uses, it is what they are trying to achieve that counts. Tongue

kaybee
kaybee  103823 forum posts Scotland24 Constructive Critique Points
13 Dec 2011 - 6:45 PM

Interesting that the OP hates 'milky water' but has one in his portfolio.......

Just because somebody does not like a particular genre or style does not make it wrong.

To take what a judge says as gospel in relation to anything is foolhardy - the next one to see the image will come out with something completely differently.
I have been pushing for years for judges to mark openly for composition, technical ability and likeability (the last one having a lower possible top mark than the other two .... eg 7, 7 and 6). This way you can see how good a judge is and there is no way that their likes and dislikes can become the major factor in marking.

whipspeed
whipspeed e2 Member 104040 forum postswhipspeed vcard United Kingdom22 Constructive Critique Points
13 Dec 2011 - 7:08 PM

That sounds a much more sensible way of judging rather than the usual "um er um er, Random number between 15-19"

We did have a judge that commented on a junior members image once and said that it was rubbish. I did write a letter to the committee stating that I hoped he would not be invited again.

Last Modified By whipspeed at 13 Dec 2011 - 7:09 PM
User_Removed
13 Dec 2011 - 9:46 PM


Quote: Interesting that the OP hates 'milky water' but has one in his portfolio........

I take it that you mean the one of Culross Pier, Kaybee. I quite liked that one - a bit different from the waterfalls and surf I was talking about in this thread. But, interestingly, that print only scored 11/20 in a club competition. It's one of those images That I am happy to have framed on my wall but accept has very little photographic merit. Decoration rather than art, I suppose.

User_Removed
13 Dec 2011 - 9:47 PM


Quote: That sounds a much more sensible way of judging rather than the usual "um er um er, Random number between 15-19" .

If only. 15 equates to "highly commended" in the eyes of some of our judges! The modal range tends to be 12-14.

lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1014137 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
13 Dec 2011 - 9:55 PM

I still like the judge we had who's comment on every B&W shot was that it would look better in colour.

ade_mcfade
ade_mcfade e2 Member 1014807 forum postsade_mcfade vcard England216 Constructive Critique Points
13 Dec 2011 - 9:57 PM

can a judge ever get it right?

lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1014137 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
13 Dec 2011 - 10:03 PM


Quote: Can a judge ever get it right?

Oh yeah....

If they give my shot 20 Wink

ade_mcfade
ade_mcfade e2 Member 1014807 forum postsade_mcfade vcard England216 Constructive Critique Points
13 Dec 2011 - 11:00 PM

you wonder what they get out of it - a power trip?

maybe they're just doing an awful job that no one else wants to do, just to help out?

I'd not like to do it

or would I?

#evil laugh!#

Tooth
Tooth  95772 forum posts Ireland227 Constructive Critique Points
13 Dec 2011 - 11:22 PM

OK, cards on table and anyone who knows me it's no surprise..

I HATE Silky Milky and am proud to be the founder (and maybe only member Smile of SPASM (Society of photgraphera Against Si8lky Milky)

and for the record I hate it even more when people blur clouds to "show movement"

BUT.... I realise it's a marmite love or hate thing, there is no right or wrong, and I would never tell anyone they'reright or wrong about it...just that I like or don't like it..

HOWEVER, getting back to the original post, I think there might be a bit of misunderstanding in his reading of the judge's intentions


Quote: He recommended using the clone stamp at 30% opacity and taking some "sparkle" from one part of the waterfall or surf and applying it to any areas that had turned milky. He said that the same technique could be used to add detail to clouds that contained none - use a 30% clone of detail from other clouds in the image.

This is indeed a useful technique to rescue BURNT OUT areas, and put some detail into them...but really that's not about the correct shutter speed to convey movement, it's about overexposure and clipping of highlights as a result of the choice of a low shutter speed.


One technique which I think more realistically might be used to really convey some motion and contain the exposure range is double or multiple exposures on layers (NOT HDR or tone mapping) - use a long exposure shot as the top layer to get the background exposure right, then erase away over the water on this layer to reveal some of the movement in the water on the layer beneath..

Just my humble unbiased thoughts Smile

Stephen

StrayCat
StrayCat e2 Member 1014800 forum postsStrayCat vcard Canada2 Constructive Critique Points
13 Dec 2011 - 11:45 PM

I like water shots any way, including 30 sec. shots.

strawman
strawman  1022006 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
13 Dec 2011 - 11:48 PM

I like milky water and also cloud blur, it appeals to me as it makes me look at the scene with a different perspective its like the moment when you see a scene and are lost in the moment. I once spent an hour on the top of a hill watching the clouds blow by and the shadows cast on the land below it helped put some aspects of life in perspective. For me photography is magical if the image captures an emotion or a sense of perspective.

But I know many hate it, I just view it as one of the many tools in a photographers kit bag and a good judge out to be able to relate to the photographers intention. One that just blast out the "I hate milky water" etc is just projecting their prejudices onto the situation without comprehending the art or soul of the image, and on a good day I feel sorry for them because in their shuttered approach they miss much of life..

Tooth
Tooth  95772 forum posts Ireland227 Constructive Critique Points
14 Dec 2011 - 12:09 AM

If you're talking about judges saying " I hate silky milky"then I agree with most of your points

However, if you are talking about me as a forum poster/fellow photographer..


Quote: I like milky water and also cloud blur, it appeals to me as it makes me look at the scene with a different perspective its like the moment when you see a scene and are lost in the moment.

I'm happy for you, genuinely
[quote]
For me photography is magical if the image captures an emotion or a sense of perspective.

Agree 100%, although what exactly captures that emotion is obviously a very personal thing


[/quote]
Quote: One that just blast out the "I hate milky water" etc is just projecting their prejudices onto the situation

not really, it's being honest about what one's opinion is, and if one then clarifies it by adding


Quote: BUT.... I realise it's a marmite love or hate thing, there is no right or wrong, and I would never tell anyone they'reright or wrong about it...just that I like or don't like it

then what harm is done

Quote:
on a good day I feel sorry for them because in their shuttered approach they miss much of life..

well don't lose much sleep over me or those you're referring to - I am really happy in being able to have personal opinions, and express them freely but without malice or oppression, and not to feel that I'm missing out because I should try to appreciate everything..I take in everything and then I form a personal opinion, then I tell others about it. Someone who appreciat4es everything appeciates nothing..

So, I agree, bad judge... Wink Tongue)

Stephen

strawman
strawman  1022006 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
14 Dec 2011 - 12:22 AM

I meant it WRT to judges, not the forum posters. Smile

I have sat through a session where what I thought were thoughtful sensitively taken images were brushed over (not mine in the case in mind so it was not the personal touch though I have felt that :-0 ) by someone who could not see what the photographer was doing/striving for. There are images I look at that pass me by but I can appreciate where thought and care is taken.

The most recent case I can think of started off with a list of things he does not like before he had even seen any images. That to me shoes a closed mind. Not everyone will like a particular image, but you could at least look. Its like me saying I hate portraits so all portraits will be dismissed.

Last Modified By strawman at 14 Dec 2011 - 12:28 AM

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