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mikehit
mikehit e2 Member 45761 forum postsmikehit vcard United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
5 Feb 2013 - 3:45 PM

The problem is that 'tax' is short so fits on a newspaper's front page (the editor of the Sun in the 80s admitted that when the Community Charge was proposed, they used the phrase 'Poll Tax' for precisely that reason even though it was nothing of the sort), and it is emotive so it makes a great shortcut to get people disagreeing with it before they even understand the issues. Effective but in the end, lazy.
As any politican, journalist or PR person will tell you, using words effectively is half the battle.

Last Modified By mikehit at 5 Feb 2013 - 3:47 PM
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5 Feb 2013 - 3:45 PM

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brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 109963 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
5 Feb 2013 - 3:55 PM


Quote: As any politican, journalist or PR person will tell you, using words effectively is half the battle.

spot on Mike and, if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes accepted as truth, which is another of the tools in the politicians' kit box.

thewilliam
5 Feb 2013 - 11:12 PM

Somebody has to pay the bill for the misdeeds of the banking fraternity.

It certainly won't be the rich and powerful so that leaves the poor and vulnerable!

strawman
strawman  1021991 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
6 Feb 2013 - 12:01 AM

But William the funding hole they are trying to close is not the banking hole it is the one where state funded activities cost more than the tax raising revenue. i.e. as a country we are spending more than we can raise in taxes. Something has to give. We as a country need to look at increasing taxes, reducing public service wages and pensions, deferring retirement age etc. It is not going to be popular, but the sooner we wake up and face that the better. The mistakes of the last 20 years need to be paid for.

Sorry, but I cannot see any way forward that does not involve reducing our national debt. Our markets are pretty well saturated and we still think in terms of ever growing markets so you see this borrow to grow message. You see these messages of double or treble dip recessions, it just looks like a flat economy to me with noise ripples. The majority of people have benefited from too light a tax burden since the 90's so now we have to recover that and our standards of living need to slip back as well.

It is a clumsy way of treating the problem but they do need to place limits on housing benefit.

Last Modified By strawman at 6 Feb 2013 - 12:02 AM
Paul Morgan
Paul Morgan e2 Member 1214383 forum postsPaul Morgan vcard England6 Constructive Critique Points
6 Feb 2013 - 2:35 AM


Quote: Sorry, but I cannot see any way forward that does not involve reducing our national debt

Maybe the government could start making more jobs available for us Brits, and at the same time freeing up a whole lot of property, stimulating growth.

779HOB
779HOB  2985 forum posts United Kingdom
6 Feb 2013 - 6:43 AM

I am not an economist by any means but I think one thing that needs to be done is to give people like me the confidence to spend. I may be looking at this in very simple terms but growth can surely only come from demand. I have a good job and make okay money from photography too. I have disposable income I guess, not loads but I have money in a savings account and I add to it each month.

Normally I would be spending it on kit or clothes or travel, eating out etc....... But this money isn't now being spent mainly because I don't know if I will need to live off it at some point in the future. I am planning to spend some of it on an X100s but that's not going to stimulate growth!

I am not the only person I am sure who has money sitting in a bank I know others I work with doing the same. The cost of living is going up and pay isn't matching this so we save our spare money just in case out gas, water, food, diesel and electric bills become to high to cover with our salaries.

I can see that cuts need to be made - I work in the public sector and there is waste and things are getting better. I can see that a lot has been done to make this happen. But what I haven't seen is anything to build consumer confidence. Maybe that's the next step but that maybe the hardest step. It will take a lot, and I am not even sure what would, to make me feel safe in spending again.

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 109963 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
6 Feb 2013 - 7:19 AM


Quote: But what I haven't seen is anything to build consumer confidence. Maybe that's the next step but that maybe the hardest step. It will take a lot, and I am not even sure what would, to make me feel safe in spending again.

I'm simple person and my mental image of the state of peoples' confidence is that its a little like realising that you have had a massive spending spree and enjoyed yourself over the past few years maxing out all your credit cards, then the bank sends you the credit card bill and a warning that you need to pay it off within the next year.

Until now you have just been paying off the interest payments so the debt is still building until the capital is also paid down but you can't really afford to do that witthout cutting back hard on everything but the essentials

Confidence to start spending will only return once you see that your outstanding debt is down to one months salary, after which you will feel safe to start spending again but maybe this time without maxing out the credit cards

In the meantime you keep getting all these payday lenders tempting you to consolidate all your debts by taking out yet another loan, at exorbitant interest rates (look to those who believe this country can spend its way out of debt)

As I say, a simple man's approach to our current problem but having lived through several of these recessive boom and bust cycles I do believe its not far out

collywobles
6 Feb 2013 - 8:15 AM


Quote: Maybe the government could start making more jobs available for us Brits

There ar lots of jobs for "us Brits" we just refuse to do them.

thewilliam
6 Feb 2013 - 8:59 AM


Quote: But William the funding hole they are trying to close is not the banking hole it is the one where state funded activities cost more than the tax raising revenue. i.e. as a country we are spending more than we can raise in taxes. Something has to give. We as a country need to look at increasing taxes, reducing public service wages and pensions, deferring retirement age etc. It is not going to be popular, but the sooner we wake up and face that the better. The mistakes of the last 20 years need to be paid for.

It is a clumsy way of treating the problem but they do need to place limits on housing benefit.

The cost of bailing out the banks was greater than the cost of ther second World War. Without this, government finances would be in a delicate state rather than a total disaster.

One of the reasons for the continuation of the recession is that many ordinary Brits are frightened to spend. I survive by selling photography to such people and I've noticed that the majority have either cut or, in some cases, eliminated their spending on non-essential items.

We already pay a lot more in tax than our European neighbours, but much of it has been well hidden. At a recent get-together Federation of Small Businesses, several manufacturers reckoned that they couldn't compete with the Chinese even if their staff gave their time for free. We're shackled by high overheads and business taxes with a generous topping of silly and expensive regulation.

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
6 Feb 2013 - 9:45 AM

There is an easy answer. Get a job and buy a house. I even as a senior cirizen am fed up of supporting the idle (not the disabled who cannot work but there again, having watched the paraolympics a lot can!!!) via tax on my pension. We as pensioners are being hit, out tax free allowance is to be frozen for a year or two and we will not be able to claim the new better state pension that is planned for 2014. We still have to pay dental care, which the benefit class, supported by me, get free of charge.

Given that we accept that why cannot other people who live in houses paid for by me, which are too big for them, give them up for more suitable accommodation to allow bigger families to enjoy a little more comfort away from overcrowding?

If you own your own house this tax will not be levied and I also doubt that the disabled who can prove adequately that they need larger houses, will suffer either. Cameron has promised to increase finances for the genuine disabled who cannot work. Many of course can work and do so with factories and offices now adapted by statute to be able to accommodate them. Working will also increase self-esteem although when you are given everything for nothing it is perhaps difficult to see that.

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
6 Feb 2013 - 9:55 AM


Quote: Confidence to start spending will only return once you see that your outstanding debt is down to one months salary, after which you will feel safe to start spending again but maybe this time without maxing out the credit cards

The answer is to go back to the 1950s - only buy what you can afford to pay for immediatly. No 'Hire Purchase' as it was called then. When you have no interest to pay on loans, you have more money to spend in the economy. Paying off interest to money lenders and banks at such exhorbitant rates as are commonplace now, is not actually putting money into thee comomy, rather the reverse is true.

Instaed of the old saying "I will save up for one of those" for some strange reason it became - "I want one of those now". Greed for modern day appliances, and the acoutriments of wealth without having the cash, just massice credit card debts was the start of the rot. Once bankers and others saw the borrowing rush, they jumped on the bandwagon and started loan shark outfits and so it went on. This is what has to stop the credit seeking public. They then spend money on interst rather than products which will help the economy to improve. Instead the bankers and loan sharks get rich and spend their money on properties in the sun like Spain, Portugal and Turkey.

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
6 Feb 2013 - 9:56 AM


Quote: and, if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes accepted as truth, which is another of the tools in the politicians' kit box.

Certainly not in the case of Chris Huhne, soon to become a convict.

keith selmes
6 Feb 2013 - 9:57 AM


Quote: One of the reasons for the continuation of the recession is that many ordinary Brits are frightened to spend.

Someone commented to me a couple of years ago, the government was sending out the wrong message, as younger people in well paid secure employment were cutting back their spending in line with the belt tightening philosophy. Doesn't exactly help keep the wheels turning and other people in work.

KevSB
KevSB  101387 forum posts United Kingdom5 Constructive Critique Points
6 Feb 2013 - 10:01 AM


Quote: and, if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes accepted as truth, which is another of the tools in the politicians' kit box.

Certainly not in the case of Chris Huhne, soon to become a convict.

Call me sceptical but I would be surprised if he did time.

keith selmes
6 Feb 2013 - 10:10 AM


Quote: why cannot other people who live in houses paid for by me, which are too big for them, give them up for more suitable accommodation

As several people have pointed out, they can't because there isn't any available. I suspect the reason why the situation has arisen is because there is no money to provide the right accommodation, (e.g. build about 300,000 single person homes) and it has been easier, and may actually be cheaper, to leave it as is.

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