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If We Can't Trust Government.......

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StrayCat
StrayCat e2 Member 1014947 forum postsStrayCat vcard Canada2 Constructive Critique Points
5 Aug 2011 - 2:34 AM

.......where do we turn? The big diversion in the US is almost over. With jobless rates at 9.2%, the Feds take a month's vacation. It took them since January to reach an agreement on the borrowing limits for Government, and from most accounts, it was a strictly political decision in preparation for next year's election. They were unable to put aside political differences long enough to do something right for the country, and its citizens. They signed off on the compromise agreement, each one mentioned how desperate the jobless rate was, and no improvement in sight, then went on a month's leave. At the same time, there were over 4000 Fed employees on layoff, waiting for approval from Government for their paychecks. All construction and other contracts came to a halt, putting 40,000 more out of work, because parliament didn't arrange financing before leaving. I just saw on the news that the Senate approved a deal to put those back to work. I believe the borrowing debate that has gone on for over 6 months was just a diversion for the unemployment problems growing in the country.

This is not a thread to just jump on the US for what they've done, or not done, since the last major international financial crises, which has only gotten worse, imo; but it's a question that must be on nearly everybody's mind right now; where do we turn next? No nation is safe from the political games being played throughout the world right now; anyone who has lost their job, and is looking for one, or anyone entering the job market, has to be wondering if anyone cares that jobs are disappearing, and there's no solution in sight. The stock markets are taking a huge hit right now as investors dump shares that they have been unable to finance, because the banks have tightened up their lending.

Every day we are treated to more scandels occurring in government; it's getting to the point where it isn't news anymore. How quickly the Rupert Murdoch story disappeared from the front pages; Syrian troops are killing their citizens by the dozen; Mubarak and his henchmen are on trial for their lives; Gadafi is still killing Lybians; our troops are still dying in Afghanistan; and the American Government goes on vacation. I don't know what my government is doing, but what happened in the US over the past week will eventually affect most of us.

Getting back to my question; what can we do when our elected representatives ignore the enormous problems facing ordinary citizens each day, just to feed our families, and play silly political games when they can find the time to go to work. It's very discouraging for many people, and what's really scarey, is I believe they've completely run out of ideas, and are just tredding water till the bubble bursts. I hope I'm wrong.

Last Modified By StrayCat at 5 Aug 2011 - 2:40 AM
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Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139544 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
5 Aug 2011 - 4:20 AM

More and more people are waking up to the fact that democracy, elected representatives etc is just mere entertainment for the masses. And the awakening is a good thing. The power lies elsewhere. The recent Murdoch saga has opened a few eyes and a few minds, but even Mr M is not one of the bigger players in the game.

The sooner we stop going on about the government should do this or that the better. Western governments are puppets of vested interests in the energy, armaments, pharmaceutical and various other strategic industries... many of whom are multinational and can afford to treat parochial governments with disdain(even when the parish is a large as the USA!) Not to mention the financial institutions which, although they may seem to have taken a hit in their influence in very recent times, still have a lot of clout.

Whilst the current meltdown may affect some adversely, for others it is major opportunity. You can be sure, the big boys/naughty men will be gobbling up shares etc when they have slumped to a low point and little investors are getting rid of these scary investments which can go down as well as up! Shock, horror! shocked-dark.jpg

But a few little investors are biding their time and, having been liquid for a very long time now, will seize their opportunity along with the naughty men. I will admit to being one of such little investors: if you can't beat 'em, join 'em! Wink

Last Modified By Carabosse at 5 Aug 2011 - 4:21 AM
StrayCat
StrayCat e2 Member 1014947 forum postsStrayCat vcard Canada2 Constructive Critique Points
5 Aug 2011 - 5:41 AM

I'm far less skeptical of your theories now, than I was say, a year ago, CB. I can see some of what you say, and it is scarey, but having experienced life under a minority government here in Canada until just recently, and seeing the same circus performing in the US, leads me to wonder about the future of our present Democratic systems. The opposition siezes every opportunity it can to try and win political points at the expense of the countries vital business. At the same time, now we have a majority government, and the arrogance has already begun to show; so I don't know what the answer is. Unfortunately, the situation is going to become a lot worse before it improves. Watching the news over the past couple of days, I get the sense that big business is digging in for another recession, or worse.

TimMunsey
TimMunsey e2 Member 386 forum postsTimMunsey vcard United Kingdom
5 Aug 2011 - 8:28 AM

They got us to buy houses to take away our will to fight for our rights, but in doing so many of us didn't pay our debts, so we have a huge mass debt, the spending power we have is diminishing as we try and save to rebuild the stolen pensions, so stocks crumble as goods remain on shelves, how will it end? It all seemed to be working so well.

cambirder
cambirder  107202 forum posts England
5 Aug 2011 - 9:30 AM

Well if people vote in people with with idiotic and ignorant policies such as espoused by the tea party then maybe they get everything they deserve.

stevie
stevie e2 Member 101198 forum postsstevie vcard United Kingdom2 Constructive Critique Points
5 Aug 2011 - 10:33 AM


Quote: The power lies elsewhere. The recent Murdoch saga has opened a few eyes and a few minds, but even Mr M is not one of the bigger players in the game.

I'm surprised it seems to have taken so long for the penny to drop with some. I recently watched, on DVD, the 'House of Cards' trilogy (anyone remember that from about 1990? 'You may well think that but I couldn't possibly comment...') Anyway, the media mogul featured in that series is a laughably not-so-subtle take-off of a Murdoch/Maxwell character.

As for shares, property investments etc etc. Well, taking a look at the current position, if you could you'd be daft not to....

jimmymack
jimmymack e2 Member 3jimmymack vcard United Kingdom
5 Aug 2011 - 10:44 AM

the biggest fear of all is that in recent modern history the other two occasions when the us and europe have been in this much s***t it ended in the first and second world wars, im not saying this will, but something radical needs to change.
global economics have made this situation almost impossibe to get out of with the whole world owing thier family silver to china and almost all the worlds manufaturing also being their. I have no faith in politicians you only have to listen to any labour MP including my own who all fail to take any resposibilty for having run our country skint, like an addicted gambler refusing to admit he stole your last £5 to put on the 3.30 at kempton park.Thats not to say the coalition are the solution either they just want to pick on those who havent a voice, the disabled, the unemployed, the low paid whislt alowing the mega rich to get away with marginal tax rates.
To me we need to have a goverment that represents all the views, a coaltion of all the major parties as if we were at war, with one single focus save this country from disaster even if that means defaulting on our debts getting out of the EU and bringing our factories back from china
we are no better off politically than before us peasents had the vote, the diffence now is we are conned into bellieving that because we vote we can change anything. there is only one certanty the rich will find ways to get richer and the rest of us will have to pay for it

strawman
strawman  1022010 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
5 Aug 2011 - 11:30 AM

I do not see it as bleak as all the rest here. Things change but stay the same. There is no point pretending that the rick and influential have no influence over government or to think that the masses have no influence either. Neither has total control. For me the world economy exists, and we in the west have become rich on the trade with the rest of the world, including countries like China. If you do not think we are rich go look at what the average standard of living is in the world is. The question for me is have we failed to balance the books?

So the challenge I think countries like the UK and USA have to face is the balancing of the books, not borrowing more money, but getting trade into balance. Now that will come at a costs, it will be mix of reduction of state funding (pensions, education, healthcare etc take your pick) and a raising of taxes. You need to recognise the needs of the poor and also the rich. After all yes its easy to say tax the well of more, and from a social point of view that could be fair, but remember its a free world and those wealth generators have the option of buggering off somewhere else and then you will be even worse off. And who are the wealthy? is it those that make enough to pay tax, those that pay 40% tax, or those that pay 50% tax etc.

Manufacturing, yes we need some back, but not all of it. Much of our current wealth has been made on the back of pushing manufacturing off to China etc. It has brought the price of cameras and other such goods down. Food as well in the past though this is reverting. We are in negative trade just now. so lets take some examples. Lets Make TV's in the UK again. So everyone happy to pat say 15% extra to have the manufacture brought back to the UK? Or will we drop the wages paid to people so they can be made in the UK. The reality is there is a balance we have probably lost too much, but as I understand it UK manufacturing is @ 11% of economy, Germany in the region of 20%, so is the target 15%???

My point is there is a need for sensible economics and a need to wake up to the fact hat if we wish for our nation to have a certain lifestyle we all have to pay for it. We have all become too used to a good life and expect a lot, well that costs. And you cannot expect people in China and India etc to sit and live poor lives, often donating their produce to us (could be raw resources etc) and not expect to try and achieve at least parity.

Which brings the next problem, we need to control world population for environmental and other reasons (including economics). The problems are solvable, but probably only at a world level and we in the west need to give up something to the rest.

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139544 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
5 Aug 2011 - 11:33 AM


Quote: I'm far less skeptical of your theories now, than I was say, a year ago, CB.

Except, don't forget, it is not a "theory" for me. For very many years and until 4 years ago, when they made me an offer I couldn't refuse Wink, it was my first-hand everyday experience. It put a roof over my head and food on the table!


Quote: Well if people vote in people with with idiotic and ignorant policies such as espoused by the tea party then maybe they get everything they deserve

Doesn't hugely matter who is voted in. Occasionally you get individual politicians who will do the job they are supposed to do and are prepared to face down the vested interests. Margaret Thatcher and the trade unions in the 1980s is often given as an example. But even she courted Rupert Murdoch!

collywobles
5 Aug 2011 - 12:03 PM


Quote: They got us to buy houses to take away our will to fight for our rights, but in doing so many of us didn't pay our debts, so we have a huge mass debt, the spending power we have is diminishing as we try and save to rebuild the stolen pensions, so stocks crumble as goods remain on shelves, how will it end? It all seemed to be working so well.

All this doom & gloom, you could always put your head in a gas oven...... (8o)

Clearly I dont see it, as obvoiusly, others do. I live in a very pleasant country which although not perfect gives me and my family a very nice way of life, I own my own house, I know my health will (probably) be taken care of, my children will be educated, I will have a pension etc. So whilst I suppose I could complain - I choose not to and get on with my life instead of whinging about politicians, banks and whatever else you care to name. I have said on here many times -- My glass is always half full! You have a choice.

€olin

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110402 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
5 Aug 2011 - 12:03 PM


Quote: My point is there is a need for sensible economics and a need to wake up to the fact hat if we wish for our nation to have a certain lifestyle we all have to pay for it. We have all become too used to a good life and expect a lot, well that costs. And you cannot expect people in China and India etc to sit and live poor lives, often donating their produce to us (could be raw resources etc) and not expect to try and achieve at least parity.

Which brings the next problem, we need to control world population for environmental and other reasons (including economics). The problems are solvable, but probably only at a world level and we in the west need to give up something to the rest

couldn't agree more John but maybe to add that we need to finally realise the idea of "Growth" as applied to the value of GDP and the Stock Market is purely fictional. The total wealth of the world is a zero sum game, as some get More others get Less. These crashes come about when the fiction becomes difficult to maintain and people suddenly realise that high houses prices don't lead to a stronger economy and states can't borrow their way out of their economic ****-ups etc.

Last Modified By brian1208 at 5 Aug 2011 - 12:04 PM
rossd
rossd  111061 forum posts England
5 Aug 2011 - 1:08 PM


Quote: All this doom & gloom, you could always put your head in a gas oven...... (8o)

Clearly I dont see it, as obvoiusly, others do. I live in a very pleasant country which although not perfect gives me and my family a very nice way of life, I own my own house, I know my health will (probably) be taken care of, my children will be educated, I will have a pension etc. So whilst I suppose I could complain - I choose not to and get on with my life instead of whinging about politicians, banks and whatever else you care to name. I have said on here many times -- My glass is always half full! You have a choice.

Couldn't agree more !!!!!!!!

After all the criticism of various governments (of all political persuasions), the power of industry, media manipulation et al, nobody can suggest a better way of doing things.......

unless of course we revert to communism! (well that worked didn't it)Wink


Quote: Western governments are puppets of vested interests in the energy, armaments, pharmaceutical and various other strategic industries...

?????????????

jondf
jondf  82475 forum posts
5 Aug 2011 - 1:49 PM


Quote: There is only one certanty the rich will find ways to get richer

And it'll be argued that in the current capitalist model they need to so that investment can be sustained to encourage growth.

But is it leading to a collapse in world markets? Can growth BE sustained indefinately? If there is a collapse, will it result in the emergence of a fitter world economy?


Quote: I have no faith in politicians you only have to listen to any labour MP

Knock him if you must but we need this bloke NOW!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gordon-brown/euro-crisis-bailout-_b_918765.html

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139544 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
5 Aug 2011 - 1:54 PM


Quote: After all the criticism of various governments (of all political persuasions), the power of industry, media manipulation et al, nobody can suggest a better way of doing things.......

The only way of getting the unelected vested interests do change their ways is to threaten their interests (example: Rupert Murdoch and BSkyB). Politicians can do this - it is what they are elected to do. But there is a snag. Any politician who does this has to be (a) very brave and (b) have absolutely no skeletons in his/her closet. Because the vested interests will fight back and they will fight dirty... very dirty indeed. You can see plenty of examples of this.

In fact anyone, politician or not, will be subjected to vicious unpleasantness of some sort directed, either against them or against their nearest and dearest.


Quote: I live in a very pleasant country which although not perfect gives me and my family a very nice way of life, I own my own house, I know my health will (probably) be taken care of, my children will be educated, I will have a pension etc. So whilst I suppose I could complain - I choose not to and get on with my life instead of whinging about politicians, banks and whatever else you care to name. I have said on here many times -- My glass is always half full! You have a choice.

We have a lot to be thankful for, for sure. But that doesn't mean we should not realise all that could change in an instant, the moment we cease to be compliant. And the nice lifestyle is, in any case, built on a mountain of quicksand.

JamesGarfield


Quote: We have a lot to be thankful for, for sure. But that doesn't mean we should not realise all that could change in an instant, the moment we cease to be compliant.

I have to agree with that statement. Debt is the new slavery. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the suffering that is being caused by this debt and the austerity measures that are being put in place is a form of control. It's not real, there's not a warehouse somewhere that's waiting to have all this money put back into it, it's just figures on a computer system that someone is manipulating. The world could right it all off this afternoon and tomorrow the sun would still rise over the planet.

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