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If We Can't Trust Government.......

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Just Jas
Just Jas  1225716 forum posts England1 Constructive Critique Points
5 Aug 2011 - 8:54 PM


Quote: I would suggest there is an even bigger price for not doing so!

PMSL!

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5 Aug 2011 - 8:54 PM

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Zatoichi
Zatoichi  4707 forum posts United Kingdom
5 Aug 2011 - 9:05 PM


Quote: the problem is we get swamped by those who seem to have retained the adolescent belief that they can have it all, NOW and ITS NOT FAIR if they have to suffer the consequences of their actions)

Sounds like you're talking about bankers.

StrayCat
StrayCat  1014200 forum posts Canada2 Constructive Critique Points
5 Aug 2011 - 9:14 PM

Even Norway is subject to world trends, and the the blunders of other nations. Eventually, the the consequences of mistakes of others trickle down to everyone. In this world today, as stated by Strawman(John), we have to think globally, because our actions have far-reaching results, so that when any members of the world community act irresponsibly, it has global impact. Take Italy's debt crises right now, and Greece, the UK; this is what started the current meltdown of the stock markets. Panic in Europe, it spreads to North America, and Asia, and we have a huge world crises; even the price of gold, which was on a steep rise, is taking a hit. Sometimes these things happen as a market correction, a sort of built-in safety valve, to bring the market in line with actual assets. Much of what is being sold off is by speculators, who play a game of betting that this time backfired.

However, two things should be foremost in everybody's minds right now, before it gets any worse, and that is economic growth, and employment; they go hand in hand. This is why I am flabbergasted at the fact the US Congress has just started a 5 week vacation, although one journalist said last night that the US Government will not accomplish anything for the next 16-18 months, which is when the election will take place. Their self-serving attitude and arrogance was evident in the recent debate over the debt limit; their goals did not include the ordinary Joe who just wants job security, and a decent life for his family. Reminds me of someone fiddling while their country burns.

Given the present global crises, and the affect decisions from Washington have on the rest of the world, we might as well dig in, it's going to be a rough ride. Maybe the solution is for Obama to call an election for right now, surprise the s**t out of Congress; do it while the recent fiasco is fresh in everyone's mind.

Last Modified By StrayCat at 5 Aug 2011 - 9:18 PM
Zatoichi
Zatoichi  4707 forum posts United Kingdom
5 Aug 2011 - 10:00 PM


Quote: Eventually, the the consequences of mistakes of others trickle down to everyone.

Sounds a bit like Adam Smith "By pursuing his own interest...he promotes that of the society more effectually", thats the 'free market' he was talking about. In 1911 the US was in credit. In 1913 the US government signed over monetary control to private banks. In 1929 the US was bankrupt......anyone see a connection?


Quote: However, two things should be foremost in everybody's minds right now, before it gets any worse, and that is economic growth, and employment; they go hand in hand.

I think we should be questioning an 'economic' system that is unsustainable and which promotes corruption, wealth consolidation, social stratification, exploitation and a wealthy elite in control of it all eg. Obama and his administration, the most Wall Street orientated in US history. It's only banks that continue to benefit from this 'crisis', although oil companies seem to do fairly well but, they've done fairly well an oppressing alternative technologies as well.

I only put down a full glass a minute ago, and someone's drunk half of it alreadyWink

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139367 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
5 Aug 2011 - 10:41 PM


Quote: I would suggest there is an even bigger price for not doing so!

Agree totally, but immediate pain is regarded as unacceptable.


Quote: A lot of us in the UK have managed to live within our means throughout our lives

Well not so sure about that. If you have used any sort of public service in your life (e.g. NHS or even local services, free bus pass etc), part of the cost has been paid for by borrowing. So, at one remove, you are not living within what the country can afford to provide you with.

Zatoichi
Zatoichi  4707 forum posts United Kingdom
5 Aug 2011 - 11:02 PM


Quote: Well not so sure about that. If you have used any sort of public service in your life (e.g. NHS or even local services, free bus pass etc), part of the cost has been paid for by borrowing. So, at one remove, you are not living within what the country can afford to provide you with.

This is true, but I object to my tax paying for wars on behalf of corporate interest, the Royal family and no doubt a lot of other questionable 'anti-democratic' practises over the years. Since 2003 the US has spent $1,230,425,346,957 on their Middle East wars, didn't hear any Senator suggest they should back off on that front before writing the banks another blank cheque paid for by the American people through 'austerity'. We in the UK naturally seem to follow that lead for some reason.

It does leave me wondering what sort of society we would live in if the ruling elite were err...altruistic.

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139367 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
5 Aug 2011 - 11:06 PM

Yes, but it is argued that if the government didn't fight all these wars we'd be over-run by terrorists... which would make public spending on other things a bit irrelevant.

It's specious nonsense, of course, but that's how the argument goes. And it is nothing new either. It's been used in one form or another for hundreds of years.

Zatoichi
Zatoichi  4707 forum posts United Kingdom
5 Aug 2011 - 11:18 PM


Quote: Yes, but it is argued that if the government didn't fight all these wars we'd be over-run by terrorists...

Is that the terrorists they create through their own policies, or, are there some I haven't heard of?Tongue


Quote: It's specious nonsense, of course, but that's how the argument goes. And it is nothing new either. It's been used in one form or another for hundreds of years

Quite agree, therefore we both qualify as terrorists. Oh well, guess I just wait for rendition to some hot place, water boarding etc, where I'll eventually confess to my mother being the mastermind.

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139367 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
5 Aug 2011 - 11:33 PM


Quote: Is that the terrorists they create through their own policies, or, are there some I haven't heard of?

If there weren't any terrorists they'd have to invent something else. For years it was the Red Menace that was used to justify giving huge sums to armaments companies and the like - but that wore a bit thin after the collapse of communism. Suddenly all these frightening countries became our buddies. Practically overnight.

The terrorist thing is also wearing a little bit thin these days so I fully expect a new threat. My money is some sort of extra-terrestrial threat. Wink

StrayCat
StrayCat  1014200 forum posts Canada2 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2011 - 1:01 AM

The US has pulled all fighting forces out of Iraq, and have announced, and started, pulling out of Afghanistan. US dependence on OPEC is dwindling, and will eventually be 0. The big problem now is, what to do with all those troops that are leaving the military now that they don't have a job. The problem is already in full swing, and don't forget, lots of these troops have trades, and the best of training and experience, so whatever jobs are available, I would expect them to get them. Then you have the college, University, and Highschool graduates, what will they do? I think it's time to go on vacation, don't you?Wink

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139367 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2011 - 1:33 AM

The sooner we get the coal-to-oil technology sorted the better. Companies like Altona Energy are in the forefront. But progress seems to be similar to that of a snail................ going up a steep hill!

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 109963 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2011 - 7:44 AM


Quote: In fact, liquid coal meets 30 percent of the transportation fuel needs in South Africa.


http://seekingalpha.com/article/23025-sasol-and-the-liquid-coal-revolution

(I liked this bit by the way
Quote: And if you think gas prices are outrageous now, consider that many experts have predicted oil prices over $100 per barrel and gas prices over $5 per gallon within the next 5 years.


)

its been avaialble and in use for decades CB, and is part of the larger move to to the use of shale oil and tar sands as feedstocks (so hated by the Greens)

Last Modified By brian1208 at 6 Aug 2011 - 7:45 AM
Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139367 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2011 - 12:29 PM

Liquid coal is not, so far as I am aware, the same as turning coal into oil... which, I assume, you can actually use instead of conventionally produced oil.

But it's not an area I claim any familiarity with so am happy to be further enlightened. Smile

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 109963 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2011 - 2:17 PM


Quote: Liquid coal is not, so far as I am aware, the same as turning coal into oil... which, I assume, you can actually use instead of conventionally produced oil

CB, it all depends on what you are talking about as "Oil". Coal cannot be converted to Crude Oil as extracted from the ground (except by nature) but can (and is) turned into hydrocarbon fuels and feedstocks - which is what crude is also used for.

That's what Sassoil do and the reference to "Liquid Coal" is a journalistic reference to diesel and petrol derived from coal using processes derived from work by the Germans during WW2 (this was the source of much of the fuel for the German War effort)

The other area of confusion is what is meant by "Coal" which can vary immensly in characteristics from lignin rich Brown Coals via more conventional coals through to high grade coking coals. As with the Tar Sands and Shales they are all products of the decomposition and conversion of decaying natural products via high pressure, temperature and time. As such, none of them are really sources of "Green Power" since they are all releasing prehistoric carbon back into the environment

this is a nice "primer"

There is also a lot of work going on producing liquid hydrocarbon fuels (including petrol & diesel) from natural gas such as here from my old company.

However - all of this is simply utilising existing fossil fuel resources into more useful forms of hydrocarbon, none of it is "Green" and all will, eventually, run out

(As you may have spotted - this is an area in which I have had much exposure and interest! Tongue )

Last Modified By brian1208 at 6 Aug 2011 - 2:20 PM
Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139367 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2011 - 2:55 PM

Thank you Brian, I do appreciate your detailed response. So what is Altona doing which is different from what appears to be mature technology?

The reason I am particularly interested is that a young friend of mine has quite a lot of his savings invested in Altona and appears to think they are doing something highly cutting-edge. I have always had a slight scepticism, but have never really delved into it as I assumed he had done his homework... and ultimately it's his money anyway! But I do feel morally obliged to tell him if he's barking up the wrong tree. Smile

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