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Image Processing - RAW or JPEG?

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    georget3
    15 Mar 2004 - 10:13 AM
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    I usually use my Canon 10D set to highest JPEG file size with minimum compression and then process the image in Photoshop. This seems quite successful.

    However, I note, (according to the camera handbook)that it is recommended that any image processing should be used with a RAW file rather than JPEG.

    Am I doing something wrong? Or is it that the Canon image editing software can only handle RAW and not JPEG (but that Photoshop can handle both)?

    Help please!

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    15 Mar 2004 - 10:13 AM

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    andytvcams
    15 Mar 2004 - 10:30 AM
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    nothing wrong,george,to get the very best out of your camera especially for large prints you should shoot Raw,also you will have more control of the image when it comes to editing.
    Andy.

    andytvcams
    15 Mar 2004 - 10:36 AM
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    PS,just took a peek at your gallery,stunning photography,i shouldn't worry about Raw,with those results.

    Carabosse
    Carabosse (e2 Member)
    9
    35381 forum postsCarabosse vcard England268 Constructive Critique Points
    15 Mar 2004 - 11:07 AM
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    I wouldn't worry about RAW. It is so camera-specific that in years to come you may not be able to read the image file. So you will, in any case, have to create a high quality JPEG (or TIFF) alongside your RAW file for storage.

    One thing I would suggest though is - save the JPEG in Photoshop (PSD) format when you download and process the image in that. Only resave the image once as a JPEG using maximum quality (11 or 12 in PS). If you think you may want to work on the image further you may be well advised to save the PSD file as well.

    UserDeleted
    15 Mar 2004 - 11:48 AM
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    George,

    To try to answer soe of your questions and also some of the comments that follow.

    1) There is little difference between HQ JPEG and RAW in quality - certainly at web resolution and probably upto A4 or even A3. The difference lies in your ability to easily change settings with a RAW file (such as white balance) after you have taken the shot. With a JPEG the settings you have placed in your camera are "burnt" into the JPEG file and you have to manipulate them in Photoshop to try to change it. That is why it is recommended to shoot RAW. I personally also shoot RAW as it does give a marginally better quality image and therefore I would rather shoot high quality and edit than not hav the detail in the picture. Andy Rouse has a good explanation of this in his new book DSLR masterclass.

    2) Andy - you wouldn't be able to tell the quality at a 72dpi web rendering of the image. Only by printing to A4+ would you see any difference. This is of course only relevant should you need to print at that size - something you will realise following your Focus posting.

    3) Carabosse - always bashing things you have no specific knowledge of. RAW is camera proprietary but widely supported by editing software, hardware manufacturers (such as Smartdisk Flashtrax), file converters etc. As all technology related items there are no gurantees but I doubt that Canon RAW will become obsolete any faster than the old JPEG standard (by the way who says that Photoshop and PSD will last forever). If it does then we will all have plenty of time to quickly batch convert our archived RAW files into a new format before that RAW software stops being compatible with our computers operating systems. That is of course providing that CD's have not distintegrated, DVD is still a supported format, and we have electricity - blah, blah, blah.....


    Mike

    Carabosse
    Carabosse (e2 Member)
    9
    35381 forum postsCarabosse vcard England268 Constructive Critique Points
    15 Mar 2004 - 12:16 PM
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    Er, Frenchie don't take on so!

    I am merely quoting what has been said about RAW on the web by experts more learned than me (or indeed you by the sound of it!)

    George: You may find the article by Ken Rockwell HERE helpful.

    keithh
    8
    20891 forum posts Wallis and Futuna6 Constructive Critique Points
    15 Mar 2004 - 12:20 PM
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    The RAW file will give you more control over the processing of your image, though, Canon's software is woeful, you'd be better off shelling out for Phase One's Capture Software. This will allow you to open the completed file as a 16 bit tiff at 300 dpi (or whatever dpi you specify). This file, once saved becomes your negative. You do not save the RAW file as it needs to be processed first as a tiff or jpeg. One minor point, if you do shoot in RAW, disable the camera's sharpening etc settings and deal with this in development. Oh and I've just read the Rockwell article - twaddle.

    Carabosse
    Carabosse (e2 Member)
    9
    35381 forum postsCarabosse vcard England268 Constructive Critique Points
    15 Mar 2004 - 12:26 PM
    0

    Keith would you like to say why you think Rockwell's article is twaddle?

    It may not be what you want to hear but it sounds like sheer commonsense to me (and obviously to the other pros he quotes).

    User_Removed
    15 Mar 2004 - 12:46 PM
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    Lets not get inflamed guys and try to help.

    Regardless of what anybody else says (pros or not), it is personal preference and need that matters.

    Based on my experience and need, I find that shooting in RAW is the way to go and for that reason is what I recommend.

    My main reason is total flexibility.

    If you can be fairly certain that you are never going to mess up on white balance, exposure etc etc then you will probably get away with shooting in high res JPEG mode providing you turn off all in-camera image processing.

    If however, you find you are going to be shooting in situations where white balance may be difficult to control and likewise exposure (also in high pressure situations, such as weddings, where you just do not have the time to check each exposure), then RAW is the sensible option so that you can extract maximum detail from the captured image and recover blown highlights or dense shadows caused by exposure problems.

    You simply cannot do this to the same extent with JPEGs.

    I mentioned switching off in-camera settings if you do use JPEG mode. The reason for this is simple. If you have in-camera sharpening set on (for example) and you do not like the look of the results - you are 'stuffed' to put it technically! Do it in Photoshop, and you have more control.

    One last thing, if you must shoot in JPEG, then do not work on the image in this mode once you have downloaded it to your PC - always save as TIFF or PSD (Photoshop) format. JPEG is a lossy format so each time you save, more of the image data is lost as part of the compression process.

    To summarise then, if you are taking your images in very controlled situations or if the end result is not required at optimum quality levels (i.e. journalism etc), then JPEG will probably meet your needs.

    If you want total control, I would opt for RAW.

    One final point about so called experts.

    You can find a so-called expert out there for every different opinion under the sun.

    What works for one does not work for another. That doesn't make either of them wrong they just work differently. You have to look upon their views as just an expression of opinion based on their own eperience and personal preference. Perhaps you will empathise with one more than another and find that the method of working they employ suits you and the way you work.

    Good luck

    Barrie Smile

    keithh
    8
    20891 forum posts Wallis and Futuna6 Constructive Critique Points
    15 Mar 2004 - 12:56 PM
    0

    Rockwell clearly does not understand what a RAW file is. He talks about not being able to send a RAW file to a client, of course not it's not what it's there for. He mentions a half hour download time for a 1gb card of files - maybe so on a machine from the ice age. Rockwell can't seem to get his head around the 1DS recording jpg and RAW simultaneously - it's a simple process and one I've never had a problem with. He is right that a photo journalist wouldn't in all probability use RAW files as he would not have the time to do so. And as for his line about digital cameras were never intended for use on landscape shots - they are cameras, they are meant to be used as such. As for colour balancing in PS - it cannot compare with the colour balancing in Phase One's Capture Software. If I had more time I'd list more.

    Going back on topic and repeating a previous post its pretty much horses for courses.

    An example....

    I shoot for a karting magazine. I usually shoot high res jpegs at meetings because I never sell pics bigger than 12x8 and the photos are for small sections of the magazine.
    When I shoot for the front cover it is _always_ raw for the reasons Barrie mentioned.
    If someone comes up to me (as on Sat) and asks for a particular photo for their company brochure then its raw.
    When I need a full page spread for the mag its raw.

    For weddings/portraits/PR its Raw - no questions asked.

    I rarely ever shoot anything lower than large jpeg on the 10D. Most of the stuff is web work and prints but you do get the very odd request after the event.

    TO reiterate Barries point - always keep the original jpeg and work on copies. Never ever work on the original.

    jonjeds
    15 Mar 2004 - 2:55 PM
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    Mike, Is Andy Rouse's book available or have you seen a preview of it?

    I've been looking out for it but haven't found it available yet.

    deviant
    15 Mar 2004 - 3:11 PM
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    It's available now you can order it of Andy Rouse's web site.

    jonjeds
    15 Mar 2004 - 9:08 PM
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    Thanks deviant but I can't find it. I'm pretty sure it hasn't been released yet.

    jonjeds
    15 Mar 2004 - 10:09 PM
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    Sorted. emailed Andy Rouse sales - just got a reply with pay address.

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