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Incandescent in Coventry


thewilliam 6 4.7k
31 Aug 2013 6:17PM

Quote:On private ground, the owners have the absolute right to allow or forbid whatever conduct they want. The security guards might have been causing you proctalgia but, if it was on private ground, they were entirely within their rights and they don't have to give you a reason. Your only remedy is to leave and you need to do so peacefully.


My understanding is that in private property, unless the NO PHOTOGRAPHY rule is clearly signposted for all to see, then Photography is in fact permitted.

As Hobbo stated, "there are no signs saying No Photography".



As a Liverpool supporter, I have to point out that photography or anything else is permitted or forbidden at the owner's whim and there's no need for a consistent policy provided they don't fall foul of the various discrimination laws. They can allow one person to snap away but forbid somebody else, They can allow photography on a Monday but not Tuesday. If it's their gaff, they make the rules and visitors have one simple choice: to obey or leave the premises.

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hobbo e2
3 816 2 England
31 Aug 2013 6:42PM
As the original poster......I will raise another pertinent point..........As I stated, my family links to Coventry go back a very very long way.........In 1940 and afterwards hitler and his nazis attempted to flatten the whole of Coventry, by indiscriminate bombing........as a wartime kid, I clearly remember the totally devastated City Centre, just a mess of obliterated shops, a blasted and incinerated Cathedral hundreds of Coventrians killed, badly injured or made homeless......the cellars of the bombed out shops were filled with water for use in case of another incendiary raid.......Until today, I had a very special attachment to Coventry City Centre .....but not now.

I wish, here to thank you for your kind words and support........please remember that, in supporting city centre shopping malls, centres and arcades you are putting profit into the coffers of the photography banning owners........challenge these stupid rules or vote with your feet, there are other shops and businesses in public areas.......should there be a photography or allied business in a centre that bans hobby photography ......tell the proprietors that the owners don't support their business.

Still feeling very angry

Hobbo
CaptivePhotons 11 1.6k 2 England
31 Aug 2013 7:54PM

Quote:challenge these stupid rules or vote with your feet, there are other shops and businesses in public areas


Do you think the owner of 'The Corner Shop' will allow you to snap away on his/her premises?

I was in town today and went into a local 'Flea Market', there were several signs therein that read photography was not permitted.


Quote:My understanding is that in private property, unless the NO PHOTOGRAPHY rule is clearly signposted for all to see, then Photography is in fact permitted


I suspect not, you cannot have a sign for every activity that is not permitted, it would be ridiculously long.
JJGEE 9 6.4k 18 England
31 Aug 2013 7:58PM

Quote:went into a local 'Flea Market'

Why ?
Stocking up for your holiday perhaps !
hobbo e2
3 816 2 England
31 Aug 2013 8:08PM

Quote:challenge these stupid rules or vote with your feet, there are other shops and businesses in public areas

Do you think the owner of 'The Corner Shop' will allow you to snap away on his/her premises?

I was in town today and went into a local 'Flea Market', there were several signs therein that read photography was not permitted.

My understanding is that in private property, unless the NO PHOTOGRAPHY rule is clearly signposted for all to see, then Photography is in fact permitted

I suspect not, you cannot have a sign for every activity that is not permitted, it would be ridiculously long.




I thank you for your considered comment......if, I wanted to take photographs in my local corner shop, I would be readily allowed to, as the proprietor knows me as a valued customer......the conglomerates that own City Centre shopping areas, just want your profit, .......I bet, if a celebrity photographer suddenly turned up in one, their minions would be fawning all over him/ her to grab as much publicity as possible.....but.....because, elderly, clearly English hobby/ keen photographer turns up .....they want his money, but after that, he can push off.

I will still fight my corner, and so should you.

Hobbo
Dave_Canon 8 918 United Kingdom
31 Aug 2013 11:07PM
Hobbo, some 20 years ago I was on holiday in York with my family and we visited Tesco's for routine shopping. I was carrying my new video camera so when my two small children stood by a model dinosaur I captured a few seconds video of my children. I was immediately confronted by the deputy manager who ordered me to stop videoing (I had already stopped). He angrily stated it was not allowed and that I should hand over the video recorder. I told him that I would not and put it in its case but explained that I would not use it again. He was then more threatening but my wife drew attention to the fact that there were now two heavies stood just behind me. My children were now upset so my wife and I made it quite clear that we were leaving the shop and did not intend to buy anything leaving a trolley full of shopping. I warned the deputy manager that if he or his staff did not get out of our way we would call the police as he initially barred our way. After returning home I pursued the matter via a legal organisation and Tesco's were forced to provide me with a written apology. Apparently had the staff prevented us from leaving they could have been charged with assault and had they taken the video camera would have been charged with theft. The written apology came from Tesco's legal dept. and only said what they had to say legally which did not impress us. It is thus no surprise that neither my wife or I have ever shopped in Tesco's since or ever likely to. I do not think that loss of our custom has harmed Tesco but it makes me feel better. Yes you have to fight your corner.

Dave
Evertonian 1 461 England
1 Sep 2013 8:45AM

Quote: If it's their gaff, they make the rules and visitors have one simple choice: to obey or leave the premises.


But if there are no signs about, how do you know whether or not you are obeying the rules???????
thewilliam 6 4.7k
1 Sep 2013 10:17AM

Quote:If it's their gaff, they make the rules and visitors have one simple choice: to obey or leave the premises.

But if there are no signs about, how do you know whether or not you are obeying the rules???????



Sign are only valid when the rules are consistent and have been thought through. The owners of premises, or their agents, can make up the "rules" on the fly and enforce them whenever the mood takes them. That's the meaning of the first sentence of the quote.
redhed17 9 666 England
1 Sep 2013 1:58PM

Quote:But if there are no signs about, how do you know whether or not you are obeying the rules???????
When somebody comes and asks you to stop.

Whether you and your family have been to the same part of the city through war and famine Wink makes no difference once that land becomes private property. There is a large area of Liverpool city centre which was sold off to the Duke of Westminster's company a decade or so ago. It is a huge shopping area called Liverpool One. It is open air, rather than an arcade, but I know, and warn people, that if they wanted they could stop people from taking pictures on their land. I've never heard of it happening, but it could happen, and they would be well within their rights.

Councils sell of land as a condition of getting whatever the commercial enterprise started, and with that the general public loses some rights in the process. It's capitalism in the modern world. :-/

You could appeal to the company, but I would imagine will little success. Publicity could make them reconsider their policy, whether that be a letter to the local paper, local TV/Radio news or an internet campaign, but most people couldn't be bothered. And so it continues. :-/
hobbo e2
3 816 2 England
1 Sep 2013 4:56PM
Many thanks again folks.....

I have sent a strongly worded letter to the CEO of the company and the managers, I have stated, that the two security guards and then later a centre manager were reasonably polite......but that doesn't stop me from feeling like a criminal whilst being questioned in public, just because I have a decent camera with me.......I have been taking photographs in the whole of Coventry City Centre including the West Orchards Shopping Centre for over ten years now......,quite openly with no problems whatsoever, mostly using one of my two RAW shooting Compact cameras......

My letter make a strong case for them to let keen photographers, not causing problems, blocking walkways or hassling passers by to be allowed to enjoy doing what photographers have been doing for a century or more.....I sent samples of my recent work and included a link to the Vivien Maier web site.........
The general public within the centre are regularly approached by stall holders, attempting to sell, Gym membership, Sky TV, E'ON POWER or those aggressive charity collector known as Chuggers who really do hassle individuals.

When, pounced upon, I had just chatted to, then given a quid to a friendly and talented Busker, who readily agreed for his portrait to be taken.......looking at that link, explaining their policy on photography, I should have said he was my cousin.

Hobbo
keithh e2
10 23.2k 33 Wallis And Futuna
2 Sep 2013 12:33PM
Ownership of a camera does not give you the right to use it where ever you choose to and what point was there to this story that one of the security 'guards' was foreign?
hobbo e2
3 816 2 England
2 Sep 2013 1:21PM
Thank you Keith,

Things said in anger are usually regretted later........ That is one of them.....

.but it does appear that as a totally free person, that self same private shopping centre can train ITS .... HD CCTV cameras .....on EVERY AND ANY Member of the public passing through.......but I as a totally free citizen amongst hundreds of others, most of whom were carrying a camera of some kind, I was picked upon simply because my micro 4/3 rds had a lens sticking out ( only a 14/45 by the way).

Of course I realise that owning a camera doesn't give me the right to use it wherever I choose.....I will repeat.....that I have been taking photographs in that self same shopping centre for over ten years now, with not a hint of a problem.

That same private company are only too pleased to see millions of shoppers spending money in the shops and other businesses in return for their rent.....including shops that sell cameras, including the camera and lens I was using at the time. There are no marked boundaries between the public city centre and West Orchards, you can simply walk through from one side to the other, there are no signs or notices forbidding photography....only a weak comment on their web site saying that family members can take photographs of each other enjoying their shopping experience.

In my letter I have put the case for bona fide Street Photography......a long used genre of our interest for over a hundred years now........Simply recording certain aspects of life ....


as it happens.....just like they record my every move as I shop.

Hobbo
KevSB 10 1.4k 5 United Kingdom
2 Sep 2013 7:44PM

Quote:If it's their gaff, they make the rules and visitors have one simple choice: to obey or leave the premises.

But if there are no signs about, how do you know whether or not you are obeying the rules???????



Its your responsibility to check your actions are legal in the environment, On private property you are a guest of the owners, like joining a website or buying online, your responsibility agin to read the terms and conditions.
To the original Poster, as above, its their property, you was a guest and they are well within their rights to ask you not to take pictures as they did. with children around, like another post cameras may cause concern to family's and create a confrontation. You would object im sure someone entering your house and taking pictures of everything in it without asking, There is very little difference.
hobbo e2
3 816 2 England
2 Sep 2013 8:38PM
I Give up!!!!

Kev!

For goodness sake....Stick up for your hobby/profession.....................I don't open my house to millions of shoppers expecting to make a profit from them.....They Do and video you whilst you are there...for all intents and purposes it is just a part of the City Centre......there are no rules or signs visible anywhere:

I fond it offensive that you even bring the subject of children into this post...the centre is open to the general public.......As I stated......I ALWAYS carry a camera it is what I do as a keen photographer......I was openly doing what ...Street Photographers do....recording life as in flashes by.........just as Vivien Maier did............(look her up if your not aware)

Every other Tom, **** and Harry oh! and Jill carry phone cameras:
If you look at the hazy centre rules on photography on the web site it states that families can photograph or video themselves enjoying their shopping experience:

I will repeat......that I have been taking photographs in there every so often, for ten years now without a problem....anyone can look at the shots I've taken at any time....I dont sneak around or use a zoom lens:

Hobbo



Hobbo
KevSB 10 1.4k 5 United Kingdom
2 Sep 2013 11:39PM
No, what you was doing was assuming that you had the right to photograph on others property without seeking permission. Nothing to do with sticking up for photographers rights. You enter that property as a guest and are expected to behave as such, there will be a sign on entering that states the management have the right to remove someone, That's all they need to say.
I realise this isn't what you want to hear but its the legal situation.

If I recollect Railway stations also have the same bylaw and can be enforced but in that case are often overlooked, As someone who has worked in the security industry I can tell you when someone starts taking pictures there will be many complaints from the public, No private business will want to be seen ignoring those customers or take the risk.
On the point of children in shopping centres have been in the media many times over the years for child abduction/abuse so it will be High on the agenda that this is monitored, more so than Terrorism.

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