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Is American Science Doomed......

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mikehit
mikehit  46107 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2012 - 4:33 PM

Foreign policy objective: let's have a far right Republican president backed by Ultra Christian neocons in charge of the worlds most militarily active country just so we can shout "Yah boo sucks".


Hmmmm....let me think about that one....

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9 Oct 2012 - 4:33 PM

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brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110152 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2012 - 4:48 PM

Apocalypse Now!

CDSINUK
CDSINUK  2219 forum posts England
9 Oct 2012 - 6:43 PM

i shouldnt worry guys, acording to nuts like this were all gonna die in december anyway lol Smile

smartwombat
9 Oct 2012 - 6:49 PM

But with nuts this this in positions of power it's scary !
Makes the Islamists look moderate in comparison ...

sherlob
sherlob e2 Member 82256 forum postssherlob vcard United Kingdom120 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2012 - 6:54 PM

I'm somewhat reluctant to comment further - not because I feel offended or anything silly like that, but rather because I see our positions are so far apart that I doubt there is any middle ground. Also the topic is clearly going to be very complex...

First. The argument made is based in part on philosophy - in particular epistemology and ontology. What is the nature of knowledge and what makes knowledge 'true'. My particular stance on these is constructionism based on a relativist ontology. In other words I believe that knowledge is constructed and that what is 'true' isn't set in stone, but rather it based on our understanding at anyone time. Currently, the common belief (including my belief) is based on the evolutionary theory of Darwin. However, I am not willing to accept that this position is the only one - and accept that another 'better' explanation (or a refinement of the current theory) is possible in the future. Furthermore, it is worth remembering that 'scientism' is a philosophical school that is relatively new and is already being challenged.

Second. And more importantly in my mind is the right to democracy. This guy has a right to his views, and his faith, just as we have a right to refute them and have our own. His views - whether you like it or not - are shared by millions of others. Just because the forum is a 'scientific' committee doesn't make his right to be heard less valid.

I'm not sure, but wasn't it Karl Marx that originated the the idea behind the saying 'power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely'? A voice in opposition - any opposition - can help question the common acceptance of those in power. What next - will you want to silence another portion of society? Say anti-abortionists or those against human cloning?

Last Modified By sherlob at 9 Oct 2012 - 6:56 PM
julesm
julesm e2 Member 101698 forum postsjulesm vcard United Kingdom7 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2012 - 7:07 PM

lol. I really do thing we should find a tooth fairy believing nut to attend a dentist forum. I think belief in tooth fairies extends back farther than the silly modern science that would disprove them.

This should never be ann argument about what people believe, but rather what it real and factual. And it certainly shold be about how many people and for how long something is believed in. Scientific knowledge and understanding in the last centuries has grown and an exponential rate and will continue to.

cambirder
cambirder  107202 forum posts England
9 Oct 2012 - 7:15 PM


Quote: Currently, the common belief (including my belief) is based on the evolutionary theory of Darwin. However, I am not willing to accept that this position is the only one - and accept that another 'better' explanation (or a refinement of the current theory) is possible in the future.

100% agree with that, but new explanations will come from rigorously thorough scientific method, not through the study of religious text.


Quote: Second. And more importantly in my mind is the right to democracy. This guy has a right to his views, and his faith, just as we have a right to refute them and have our own. His views - whether you like it or not - are shared by millions of others. Just because the forum is a 'scientific' committee doesn't make his right to be heard less valid.

Oh yes it does, democracy does not mean giving those with scientific views that are 100% proved false an active role in scientific policies, otherwise we end up teaching our children ID and other such bollocks in science classes. Democracy needs the truth to be taught not a pack of lies derived from a twisted interpretation of the Bible, even if large numbers of people believe the crap their home schooling parents, or evangelical preachers have polluted their minds with.

Umberto_Vanni
Umberto_Vanni e2 Member 9341 forum postsUmberto_Vanni vcard Scotland
9 Oct 2012 - 8:02 PM

The Bible teaches fairness, understanding, compassion. Anything that promotes these values is to be applauded in my opinion. There are those who twist the Bible message so that it seems to mean the opposite. I think they are misguided.

There is much in the Bible that can be questioned. Ambiguity, if you like. I happen to believe the Bible message. Some say that you can't pick and choose from the Bible. I happen to believe that but I am not perfect. No one is. I make mistakes. I don't always follow the Bible's teachings. According to the Bible, we should strive to be perfect and follow the ways of the Bible but we will always fall short as we are human.

There is evidence that Jesus existed but the true message of the Bible is faith...believe and you shall see. It's fashionable to mock the Bible or not speak of it at all, however there are probably more people out of the public eye quietly living their lives according to the teachings of the Bible with fairness, understanding and compassion who do not ask or expect praise or applause.

We find it okay to worship celebrity, royalty etc. who are fallible and poor role models, yet it is frowned upon to worship God who promotes those values of love and compassion. Indeed there is hatred and vitriol by some against those who worship God. It seems back to front in my view. Why can we not tolerate God yet we can tolerate these fallible celebrities?

sherlob
sherlob e2 Member 82256 forum postssherlob vcard United Kingdom120 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2012 - 8:03 PM

But what constitutes the 'truth'?

cambirder
cambirder  107202 forum posts England
9 Oct 2012 - 8:32 PM


Quote: Indeed there is hatred and vitriol by some against those who worship God.

I'm an atheist but am happy for others to believe in God (or gods) in fact I'm married to a believer. I also don't have a problem with creationists who have never engaged with science. I do however despise those intelligent people, who despite several mountains of evidence from biology, geology, paleontology, astronomy and physics still profess to believe the universe is less than 10,000 years old and was all created in 144 hours. At best they are in severe denial, at worse they are liars and con artists.

Last Modified By cambirder at 9 Oct 2012 - 8:32 PM
julesm
julesm e2 Member 101698 forum postsjulesm vcard United Kingdom7 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2012 - 8:36 PM


Quote: The Bible teaches fairness, understanding, compassion. Anything that promotes these values is to be applauded in my opinion. There are those who twist the Bible message so that it seems to mean the opposite. I think they are misguided.

Not a bad thing, but I'd images there are millions of works of text that also help people be better people?


Quote: We find it okay to worship celebrity, royalty etc. who are fallible and poor role models, yet it is frowned upon to worship God who promotes those values of love and compassion. Indeed there is hatred and vitriol by some against those who worship God. It seems back to front in my view. Why can we not tolerate God yet we can tolerate these fallible celebrities?

I guess because in that comment youve just made a massive leap from giving credit to a book of good advice (well some of it anyway) to believing in fairy tales. To be fair, I dont care if someone wants to believe there is a god or gods or fairies of dragons, but without a shred of evidence to back it up apart from bloodied barbaric history of ignorance, why should we tolerate the discussion.

The world used to believe the sun and stars went round the eath, and Gallileo was imprisoned by the Catholic church for establishing (note I didnt say believing) that they didnt. Man only creates Gods to explain the things they dont understand, and fortunately, mans understanding is slowly shining a light on the remaining hiding places.

julesm
julesm e2 Member 101698 forum postsjulesm vcard United Kingdom7 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2012 - 8:43 PM


Quote: But what constitutes the 'truth'?

Id say whatever is right, regardless of whether or not people know it.

Just saying something (even over and over) doesnt make it any more right if there is no reason or evidence to back it up?

Umberto_Vanni
Umberto_Vanni e2 Member 9341 forum postsUmberto_Vanni vcard Scotland
9 Oct 2012 - 8:49 PM


Quote: Indeed there is hatred and vitriol by some against those who worship God.


I'm an atheist but am happy for others to believe in God (or gods) in fact I'm married to a believer. I also don't have a problem with creationists who have never engaged with science. I do however despise those intelligent people, who despite several mountains of evidence from biology, geology, paleontology, astronomy and physics still profess to believe the universe is less than 10,000 years old and was all created in 144 hours. At best they are in severe denial, at worse they are liars and con artists.

I think the true bible message is as i stated previously. Understanding, compassion and fairness.

The point i was making was belief in "Celebrity" is tolerated, yet it is fundamentally flawed. Seemingly "intelligent" people promote the values espoused by them yet those very values can cause pain, abuse and death. (drugs, the pursuit of "fame", depression, suicide). So why do intelligent people not question these values yet feel ok to despise the values promoted by the Bible?

Is seems to me more false and untrue to follow the ways of fallible humans than to follow the Bible.

sherlob
sherlob e2 Member 82256 forum postssherlob vcard United Kingdom120 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2012 - 9:13 PM

What is 'right'?

These are philosophical questions - for which there is no agreed answer - rather just theories and positions.

cambirder
cambirder  107202 forum posts England
9 Oct 2012 - 9:17 PM


Quote: The point i was making was belief in "Celebrity" is tolerated, yet it is fundamentally flawed. Seemingly "intelligent" people promote the values espoused by them yet those very values can cause pain, abuse and death. (drugs, the pursuit of "fame", depression, suicide). So why do intelligent people not question these values yet feel ok to despise the values promoted by the Bible?


You seem to be under the impression that religious belief is less tolerated than say the use of drugs is which is patently not true. In general most of us are fairly tolerant of peoples beliefs but what we don't tolerate is people dressing up religious dogma as science as YECs continue to do, and when challenged they come up with this crap about scientists and atheists being involved in some big conspiracy to do away with God. Just have a look at the Answers in Genesis or any other crackpot creationst website to see how mad these lunatics are.

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