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Is American Science Doomed......

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cambirder
cambirder  107202 forum posts England
9 Oct 2012 - 9:20 PM


Quote: Is seems to me more false and untrue to follow the ways of fallible humans than to follow the Bible.

And exactly what species wrote the Bible?

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9 Oct 2012 - 9:20 PM

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Umberto_Vanni
Umberto_Vanni e2 Member 9366 forum postsUmberto_Vanni vcard Scotland
9 Oct 2012 - 9:22 PM


Quote: Not a bad thing, but I'd images there are millions of works of text that also help people be better people?

You are probably right, but i would guess that most of these texts don't create the same reaction that the Bible seems to.


Quote: I guess because in that comment youve just made a massive leap from giving credit to a book of good advice (well some of it anyway) to believing in fairy tales. To be fair, I dont care if someone wants to believe there is a god or gods or fairies of dragons, but without a shred of evidence to back it up apart from bloodied barbaric history of ignorance, why should we tolerate the discussion.

Human history is filled with stories of bloody barbaric ignorance. When people have drifted from what is the true message of the Bible (i.e interpreting it in their own way) that seems to be when the worst extremes of bloody barbarism have reared their ugly head.


Quote: The world used to believe the sun and stars went round the eath, and Gallileo was imprisoned by the Catholic church for establishing (note I didnt say believing) that they didnt. Man only creates Gods to explain the things they dont understand, and fortunately, mans understanding is slowly shining a light on the remaining hiding places.

Again, it is the fundamental message of the Bible that is important here. The promotion of understanding, compassion, fairness and love. The Bible never promoted the idea that the sun and stars went round the earth.

With your last point, perhaps you are referring to the Higgs-Boson particle? I think it was on here that i read to a reply that the Higgs-Boson particle had been discovered with the words "Thank God for that". I have to admit. i struggled with the idea that Adam and Eve were the first humans and that some Biblical characters lived to many hundreds of years but perhaps these figures are not based on the Roman calendar that we use today.

The fundamental message of the Bible remains and has always remained the same. That is unchanging and is the opposite what seems to be the human view today that "anything goes". That seems to be a recipe for disaster.

julesm
julesm  101698 forum posts United Kingdom7 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2012 - 9:26 PM

I don't actually disagree with any of that. I just don't think there needs to be an imaginary god figure behind any good stuff you can cherry pick from the bible or any other book.

Umberto_Vanni
Umberto_Vanni e2 Member 9366 forum postsUmberto_Vanni vcard Scotland
9 Oct 2012 - 9:36 PM


Quote: The point i was making was belief in "Celebrity" is tolerated, yet it is fundamentally flawed. Seemingly "intelligent" people promote the values espoused by them yet those very values can cause pain, abuse and death. (drugs, the pursuit of "fame", depression, suicide). So why do intelligent people not question these values yet feel ok to despise the values promoted by the Bible?


You seem to be under the impression that religious belief is less tolerated than say the use of drugs is which is patently not true. In general most of us are fairly tolerant of peoples beliefs but what we don't tolerate is people dressing up religious dogma as science as YECs continue to do, and when challenged they come up with this crap about scientists and atheists being involved in some big conspiracy to do away with God. Just have a look at the Answers in Genesis or any other crackpot creationst website to see how mad these lunatics are.

I agree about the fundamentalists. Religious fanaticism seems to be the opposite of what the Bible teaches. It's when, as i previously said, people interpret the bible in their own way that problem star to occur. The thing about the conspiracy is their interpretation. You can't pick and choose things out of the Bible and twisting the message of the Bible to suit is, paradoxically, just as harmful if not worse than not following it at all.

lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1014143 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2012 - 9:39 PM


Quote: It's when, as i previously said, people interpret the bible in their own way that problem star to occur.

How else could you interpret it? You either interpret it your own way or just accept someone else's interpretation.

julesm
julesm  101698 forum posts United Kingdom7 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2012 - 9:39 PM

There's nothing wrong with not following the bible or any other fictitious work. I certainly don't need it to be a good person? It would worry me if people do?

julesm
julesm  101698 forum posts United Kingdom7 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2012 - 9:41 PM

What's good about scientific fact is that people don't have to apply an interpretation.

Umberto_Vanni
Umberto_Vanni e2 Member 9366 forum postsUmberto_Vanni vcard Scotland
9 Oct 2012 - 9:45 PM


Quote: Is seems to me more false and untrue to follow the ways of fallible humans than to follow the Bible.

And exactly what species wrote the Bible?

The Bible is the word of God recollected by humans. The word "Bible" literally means "paper" or "scroll" so it is a direct recollection from writings and accounts at the time.

julesm
julesm  101698 forum posts United Kingdom7 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2012 - 9:48 PM


Quote: Is seems to me more false and untrue to follow the ways of fallible humans than to follow the Bible.

And exactly what species wrote the Bible?

The Bible is the word of God recollected by humans. The word "Bible" literally means "paper" or "scroll" so it is a direct recollection from writings and accounts at the time.

And on what basis do you make a claim that some mythical being was involved in the production of the book.

Steve_S
Steve_S e2 Member 8176 forum postsSteve_S vcard United Kingdom3 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2012 - 9:54 PM


Quote: I don't agree with him, but I do believe everyone has the right to an opinion even if it differs to mine. Why shouldn't that opinion be heard in scientific forum?

Of course he has a right to an opinion but for anyone to be heard in a scientific forum you have to back up your opinion. If you can show mathematically or experimentally that the current laws of science are incorrect then the scientists will listen.But they will also need to see some evidence of your new proposed theory. If I had a belief that the human race travelled from the moon 10,000 years ago and wanted the world to believe me, I think that everyone, scientists and creationists would expect me to prove it or be ignored.

sherlob
sherlob e2 Member 82325 forum postssherlob vcard United Kingdom125 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2012 - 9:54 PM


Quote: What's good about scientific fact is that people don't have to apply an interpretation.

Nonsense. Scientific fact is always being interpreted. For example - take Kuhn's idea of a scientific paradigm. A scientific theory that has near universal acceptance within the scientific community. That fact is constantly being interpreted by any scientific experiment that is carried out to explore the theory. It's being interpreted by those who seek to challenge the theory. It is interpreted by those seeking to apply the theory to everyday situations. E.g. a doctor prescribing you a medication. Kuhn suggests that a paradigm only exists whilst a critical mass of 'believers' subscribe to it.

Scientific fact in the sense that you refer to it implies that there is a single truth and that not only is this knowable - it is known. I doubt any of the scientists who have created the evidence referred to in this thread time and again - would make such a bold claim.

Last Modified By sherlob at 9 Oct 2012 - 9:56 PM
julesm
julesm  101698 forum posts United Kingdom7 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2012 - 9:59 PM

Er, your mistaking a theory with a fact, even though you switch between the two phrases throughout your comment!

A fact is something that can be proved, like the world not being flat.

Umberto_Vanni
Umberto_Vanni e2 Member 9366 forum postsUmberto_Vanni vcard Scotland
9 Oct 2012 - 9:59 PM


Quote: Is seems to me more false and untrue to follow the ways of fallible humans than to follow the Bible.

And exactly what species wrote the Bible?

The Bible is the word of God recollected by humans. The word "Bible" literally means "paper" or "scroll" so it is a direct recollection from writings and accounts at the time.

And on what basis do you make a claim that some mythical being was involved in the production of the book.

Personally speaking, I have had some experiences that cannot be explained otherwise. The fundamental message of the Bible (and please note this) is "Believe and you shall see". That is what faith is all about

Last Modified By Umberto_Vanni at 9 Oct 2012 - 10:00 PM
julesm
julesm  101698 forum posts United Kingdom7 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2012 - 10:17 PM

Lol, I can't believe I'm having this conversation. Millions of people could believe there's a chocolate teapot spinng in geo stationary orbit above earth, but the mere existence of the belief, doesn't mean the teapot exists.

Christians are atheists just like me; I just believe in one less god than you.
It's rather convenient that religion has the trump card called faith to explain their belief in fairy tales.

I used to be a believer so I know all too well where your coming from, and I know why arguing with you is futile. But I managed to free myself from the delusion, when I realised how brainwashed I was and I learnt about the real nature of thing like our origins and human nature and what we know of a wonderful world and universe.

I find all religions Ann affront to common sence and our knowledge today. To think otherwise is to entertain the ignorant and barbaric views of primitive people.

julesm
julesm  101698 forum posts United Kingdom7 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2012 - 10:28 PM

And as for the bible being a morale compass, what a joke that is. The bible us littered with contradictions, ambiguity and barbarism that makes it no surprise that religion has been responsib,e for more slaughter and misery than any other thing?

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