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Is it true or Photoshopped?


llareggub 4 756 United Kingdom
13 Jul 2014 7:54AM

Quote:I genuinely have no idea what positive benefit can be gained from knowing an image is a sooc JPEG

If you're an editor of a newspaper or news website you would probably feel more confident in publishing the 'scoop' that someone has emailed you if the tool says it's probably genuine, might also be handy in cases of kidnap and blackmail to know that the image you received is most likely Photoshopped.

There'll be people who use it.



Given that it has no provenance and does not work for many images (although one of the few images I shot in JPEG did get high trust) I think anyone using it is nothing short of a half wit!

My guess is that in cases of 'kidnap and blackmail' the police will not be hunting the web for a half baked app, the same goes for the press.

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arhb e2
7 2.5k 68 United Kingdom
13 Jul 2014 9:20AM
I bet they have a really awesome, 100% reliable version of this in CSI Miami.
And, they had it at least 5 years ago Smile
keithh e2
11 23.4k 33 Wallis And Futuna
13 Jul 2014 9:29AM
I think most people would be surprised how photography is actually used on a day to day basis in police work, however very few CSI photographers ( in some forces none) would produce their own prints or viewable files themselves for any case that went beyond Local CID. Many forces are even unwilling to spend money on software that is also available to them to maximise their use of photography and video.
thewilliam 6 4.8k
13 Jul 2014 12:30PM

Quote:I think most people would be surprised how photography is actually used on a day to day basis in police work, however very few CSI photographers ( in some forces none) would produce their own prints or viewable files themselves for any case that went beyond Local CID. Many forces are even unwilling to spend money on software that is also available to them to maximise their use of photography and video.


I'm shocked how the Home Office evidence guidelines are ignored by many police forces.

If we have the RAW files safely filed away, at least we're prepared for any cross-examination that may happen!
thewilliam 6 4.8k
13 Jul 2014 12:35PM
I remember a case where a council parking enforcer had "photoshopped" a pic to alter the date imprinted in the image. The defendant demanded a print and examined it under high magnification to discover that date digits had been altered.

Strangely, the offending parking enforcer wasn't sanctioned in any way. He should have been charged with perjury at the very least.
arhb e2
7 2.5k 68 United Kingdom
13 Jul 2014 12:47PM

Quote:

Strangely, the offending parking enforcer wasn't sanctioned in any way. He should have been charged with perjury at the very least.



That's disgraceful, but sadly not entirely surprising.
Chris_L e2
1.5k United Kingdom
13 Jul 2014 1:37PM

Quote:Given that it has no provenance and does not work for many images (although one of the few images I shot in JPEG did get high trust) I think anyone using it is nothing short of a half wit!
.

You're right, nobody sensible will even try it when wondering about a photo they see on ebay or a dating site or anywhere on the world wide web.


Quote:My guess is that in cases of 'kidnap and blackmail' the police will not be hunting the web for a half baked app, the same goes for the press


Right again, because in cases of 'kidnap and blackmail' the police are always involved. The person who receives images of a loved one in a dangerous or compromising position always goes immediately to the police.
llareggub 4 756 United Kingdom
13 Jul 2014 2:00PM

Quote:Given that it has no provenance and does not work for many images (although one of the few images I shot in JPEG did get high trust) I think anyone using it is nothing short of a half wit! .

You're right, nobody sensible will even try it when wondering about a photo they see on ebay or a dating site or anywhere on the world wide web.

My guess is that in cases of 'kidnap and blackmail' the police will not be hunting the web for a half baked app, the same goes for the press

Right again, because in cases of 'kidnap and blackmail' the police are always involved. The person who receives images of a loved one in a dangerous or compromising position always goes immediately to the police.



Anything on a dating site, ebay, facebook etc etc will be compressed and resized & will therefore almost certainly fail the test...

As for the blackmail kidnap nonsense, if they are relying on a crappy web app rather than requesting assistance from the authorities they deserve what ever general unpleasantness that befalls them!
Chris_L e2
1.5k United Kingdom
13 Jul 2014 3:51PM

Quote:As for the blackmail kidnap nonsense, if they are relying on a crappy web app rather than requesting assistance from the authorities they deserve what ever general unpleasantness that befalls them!


So are you saying nobody will use the app??

In your first post you said

Quote:I genuinely have no idea what positive benefit can be gained from knowing an image is a sooc JPEG


Is that still the case or have you managed to think of an instance where someone, such as the media or the police, might find the info useful (regardless of which app they use)?
keithh e2
11 23.4k 33 Wallis And Futuna
13 Jul 2014 4:05PM

Quote:If we have the RAW files safely filed away, at least we're prepared for any cross-examination that may happen!


And how would you evidence the integrity and continuity of that raw file. CSI photographers do not store their own evidential images and most are not in a raw format.
llareggub 4 756 United Kingdom
13 Jul 2014 6:07PM

Quote:As for the blackmail kidnap nonsense, if they are relying on a crappy web app rather than requesting assistance from the authorities they deserve what ever general unpleasantness that befalls them!

So are you saying nobody will use the app??

In your first post you said
I genuinely have no idea what positive benefit can be gained from knowing an image is a sooc JPEG

Is that still the case or have you managed to think of an instance where someone, such as the media or the police, might find the info useful (regardless of which app they use)?



I am sure people will use it, people use useless pieces of nonsense all of the time... I am currently working on an app which is a throw away piece of nonsense that has no value other than making people smile, it will get used.

I think the notion that the CPS/Police will use this app is pure folly, are you really suggesting that this app will be used anywhere in the evidential system to decide whether something will or will not be put in front of a jury?

I am sure that being able to authenticate an image is useful in a few isolated situations, however to use a parsimonious app such as this is quite frankly ridiculous and I maintain that this app is useless, but so are shop bought roast potatoes and idiots still buy them!
keithh e2
11 23.4k 33 Wallis And Futuna
13 Jul 2014 6:18PM
The software to validate and investigate digital imagery is available and used by forensic agencies both government and private.
Chris_L e2
1.5k United Kingdom
13 Jul 2014 7:33PM

Quote:are you really suggesting that this app will be used anywhere in the evidential system to decide whether something will or will not be put in front of a jury?


When did I or anyone else suggest that?


Quote:I genuinely have no idea what positive benefit can be gained from knowing an image is a sooc JPEG


You now accept that the need exists.

You simply have to go one further and accept that people who don't have access to the same facilities as police and others will use a website like this. To them, it's not useless.
thewilliam 6 4.8k
13 Jul 2014 7:54PM

Quote:If we have the RAW files safely filed away, at least we're prepared for any cross-examination that may happen!

And how would you evidence the integrity and continuity of that raw file. CSI photographers do not store their own evidential images and most are not in a raw format.



As far as I know, RAW files can't be altered in any way. Lightroom leaves the file unaltered and adds a "sidecar file". So if the other side questions the integrity of the file, they can be shown the original. Take a look at the Home Office procedures, which the police rarely seem to follow.
keithh e2
11 23.4k 33 Wallis And Futuna
13 Jul 2014 9:29PM
You're missing the point, William. Police evidence has to be kept in police storage under prescribed conditions and downloaded as per force policy so as to record when it was initially produced and also to keep a record of any copies made, printed or even viewed. Evidential photographs are not kept by the photographer and indeed are rarely raw files anyway.

Any photos below this level are those taken by officers and not subject to any scrutiny by anybody much less the courts other than a record of property, incident or damage to person or property. They are however still stored under specific conditions.

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