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Is publishing street photography in a book: commercial or editorial or artistic use?

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    TonyCoridan
    26 Feb 2013 - 10:10 PM

    Hi Fellow photographers/Artists,

    Is publishing street photography in a book: commercial or editorial or artistic use?

    Thanks,

    Tony

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    26 Feb 2013 - 10:10 PM

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    goexplorephotography

    No problems with publishing street photography in a book. Its not commercial as long as the subject is not endorsing a product or service, so its classed as artistic use. Magazine and newspapers are classed as editorial.

    KevSB
    KevSB  101408 forum posts United Kingdom5 Constructive Critique Points
    26 Feb 2013 - 11:35 PM

    If the op is selling the book tho, does that then become commercial as he's doing so for gain or am I wrong on that!

    TonyCoridan
    26 Feb 2013 - 11:40 PM


    Quote: No problems with publishing street photography in a book. Its not commercial as long as the subject is not endorsing a product or service, so its classed as artistic use. Magazine and newspapers are classed as editorial.

    I understand this argument/defence/rationale and I'd tend to use this too...



    Quote: If the op is selling the book tho, does that then become commercial as he's doing so for gain or am I wrong on that!

    I'm unsure with this aspect too!

    so which one is right legally for us photographers/artists (not everyone sees photographers as artists)...

    paulcookphotography

    It will also depend on whether the images are published in the OPs own book or to illustrate another's, and how the images are used (illustrations, cover/dust jacket images for example)

    User_Removed
    27 Feb 2013 - 1:46 AM

    Editorial. Next question.

    TonyCoridan
    27 Feb 2013 - 10:34 AM

    How is being captured on CCTV is acceptable? People are on CCTV almost all the time when we are out in the public place and in private place eg in a shop- the huge supermarket a d the small corner shops.

    They capture 24/7 and without discrimination eg all ages. But, a photographer can't take a few photos without being hassled by people.

    Scenarios:

    1. Photographer in public place just about to take photos (street photography). He is approached by a policeman who said to the photographer that he was seen on CCTV taking photos and he was asked to come an investigate. Photographer explained and showed some IDs. Police officer happy and said, it's ok, go and take as much photos as like all day- with a smile.


    2. Group of women captured in the frame of street photography. One of the women told the other that they have been photographed by the man. The other woman asked he photographer if they have been photographed, he said yes and showed them he photo. Only one of them talking: she asked for the photo to be deleted, photographer asked if there was a problem?

    She said that it was in infringement on her right to privacy!

    She asked what was the photo for; photographer explained that it was for street photography/journalism.

    She asked where will the photo be published she was given the web address.

    The photographer didn't delete the photos, obviously.

    So, my question is, if people are so concerned about their privacy, should they be out at all? Do they realised they are being captured on CCTV?

    How do people rationalise their argument?

    keith selmes
    27 Feb 2013 - 11:05 AM

    CC TV pictures aren't usually published. When a section was uploaded to youtube, a security person lost his job. I think they're only usually kept for a limited time as well.

    This discussion might be interesting, considering when privacy in personal life in a public place can outweigh editorial considerations http://www.out-law.com/page-4663

    "The present case does not concern the dissemination of 'ideas', but of images containing very personal or even intimate 'information' about an individual. Furthermore, photos appearing in the tabloid press are often taken in a climate of continual harassment which induces in the person concerned a very strong sense of intrusion into their private life or even of persecution."

    However that might not apply to the OP, and I don't think it should apply to the situation of the woman in the street.

    keith selmes
    27 Feb 2013 - 11:12 AM

    Not really offering any answers, but further case studies

    From http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=35938

    "The photographer, Luc Delahaye, took not-so-candid portraits of people in the Paris metro railway.
    People going to work in the morning, not always smiling, on the contrary.
    The work was published and some people who recognised themselves tried to sue the photographer and they lost.
    An interesting note in this case is that French judges referred to the European law (article 10 of the European Chart for Human rights granting the rights to journalists to freely publish) ruling against the French law (I quote Le Figaro) :
    Le tribunal avait alors fait primer le droit à l'information garanti par l'article 10 de la convention européenne des droits de l'homme sur l'article 9 du code civil. Un retournement. "

    And in America
    http://strobist.blogspot.com/2011/05/sidewalk-art.html
    "the judge deemed that as long as the original intent of the photography was artistic than it was okay to display the images without consent or payment to the subjects. "

    TonyCoridan
    27 Feb 2013 - 11:32 AM

    Ok, all sound promising for us photographers/artists:

    Straight silly question: can I, for example, publish this photo in a book for artistic purposes without her consent/payment to her? This photo

    What would be the justification? I can't say it's street photography; it's just a portrait of a woman in the street...!

    Tony

    JackAllTog
    JackAllTog e2 Member 53651 forum postsJackAllTog vcard United Kingdom58 Constructive Critique Points
    27 Feb 2013 - 12:48 PM

    If it was taken in a public place then I'd think I could if I wanted to. (As long as any text around her was not libellous etc).

    KevSB
    KevSB  101408 forum posts United Kingdom5 Constructive Critique Points
    27 Feb 2013 - 3:33 PM


    Quote: How is being captured on CCTV is acceptable? People are on CCTV almost all the time when we are out in the public place and in private place eg in a shop- the huge supermarket a d the small corner shops.

    They capture 24/7 and without discrimination eg all ages. But, a photographer can't take a few photos without being hassled by people.

    Quick Explenation
    To use CCTV in a public place it should by law be done by Licenced CCTV operators who have are bound by data Protection, The attain the course you are required to take a cctv operaters course covering all aspects of the law, A couple of exceptions to that are vollenteers using police operated systems but they must be overseen by a police officer.
    Private systems should not cover the Public Highway, Inside private Areas like a supermarket there is no requirement for a licence as you are a guest of the store and are seen to except there conditions of entry.


    Quote: CC TV pictures aren't usually published. When a section was uploaded to youtube, a security person lost his job. I think they're only usually kept for a limited time as well.

    As mentioned any footage is bound by the data protection act so can not be published except in certain curcumstances, 28 days and have to be destroyed by law unless they are required for evidence. There are exceptions to all the above but it would take a month to list them all in detail

    Last Modified By KevSB at 27 Feb 2013 - 3:38 PM
    SteveCharles
    27 Feb 2013 - 5:25 PM


    Quote: Is publishing street photography in a book: commercial or editorial or artistic use?


    Quote: Editorial. Next question.

    I disagree, I would consider a book of street photography in and of itself to be artistic. Although it is a form of documentary.


    Quote: Straight silly question: can I, for example, publish this photo in a book for artistic purposes without her consent/payment to her?

    Of course. If not, then much of the best street photography (or much photography) would ever have been published. what is the difference between publishing it on this website and in a book?


    Quote: What would be the justification? I can't say it's street photography; it's just a portrait of a woman in the street...!

    If it's an unposed image taken in a public place then it fits the current understanding of 'street photography'. It's perhaps not of much interest as a standalone shot out of context, although stylistically it could be said to resemble something from Philip-Lorca di Corcia's 'Heads' project. Di Corcia famously had a lawsuit brought against him by one of his subjects, and the case was dismissed, which of course is very relevant to the question here.

    User_Removed
    27 Feb 2013 - 10:00 PM


    Quote: Is publishing street photography in a book: commercial or editorial or artistic use?
    Editorial. Next question.

    I disagree, I would consider a book of street photography in and of itself to be artistic. Although it is a form of documentary

    It's not a matter of opinion whether it is editorial or artistic - from the point of view of choosing the correct category for licensing, books fall under editorial use and, therefore, do not need model releases for this purpose.

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