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Is there such a camera

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Madhatter58
4 Nov 2012 - 1:10 PM

Is there a fully manual digital camera? Where you get dials instead of buttons. Like a digital version of a Nikon FM2. Or is this too much to ask these days?

Also in regards to iso settings, are these the same as the old settings for film speed like 100 asa? Or is my light meter now defunct too?

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Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139392 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
4 Nov 2012 - 1:15 PM

There are even digital compacts where you can set dials to do various things such as shutter speed and aperture.

All digital cameras, other than the very basic, have adjustable ISO.

petebfrance
4 Nov 2012 - 1:43 PM

I treat ISO and ASA ratings as being 'the same'. Here's an article on film speed, and looking at the table at the bottom of the page that seems to be a reasonable approach:
Film Speed

Sooty_1
Sooty_1 Critique Team 41181 forum posts United Kingdom196 Constructive Critique Points
4 Nov 2012 - 3:57 PM

Leica M8, M8.2, M9, M Monochrom, Epson RD1 series. Manual focus, manual and aperture priority. Fantastic image quality, fantastic price.

ASA and ISO are effectively interchangeable these days, so no, your meter still works fine. Only thing you don't have with digital is reciprocity failure with long or very short exposure times!

Nick

Last Modified By Sooty_1 at 4 Nov 2012 - 4:00 PM
User_Removed
4 Nov 2012 - 5:00 PM


Quote: Is there a fully manual digital camera? Where you get dials instead of buttons. Like a digital version of a Nikon FM2. Or is this too much to ask these days?

It is probably too little to ask rather than too much. The more "professional" the camera, the more you do with dials rather than menus. For example, you will use a dial to set the shutter speed and a different dial to set the aperture - but you will probably use the same dials, in conjunction with buttons, to set lots of other things.


Quote: Also in regards to iso settings, are these the same as the old settings for film speed like 100 asa? Or is my light meter now defunct too?

A wee bit misleading to think of them as the same. But as virtually every digital camera has a built-in lightmeter, your old one may be heading for redundancy anyway. You can use the built-in one in all sorts of ways, other than the obvious, such as measuring incident light, etc. Specialist meters - e.g. flash meters, can be set for the ISO setting you have selected on your camera - or vice versa.

Remember that the speed rating of a film, e.g. ASA, DIN, BS, etc was a measure of the sensitivity of the film to light. The ISO setting of a digital camera does not affect the sensitivity of the sensor to light and, strictly speaking, dopes not affect "exposure". All it does is vary the amount of amplification given to the digital signal produced by the sensor after exposure. (Which is why "noise" can become an issue - it is exactly the same phenomenon as Hi-Fi enthusiasts get when the amplify an audio signal.)

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139392 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
4 Nov 2012 - 6:06 PM

I see the OP uses a Leica D-Lux 5. Perhaps he could say what it is about the camera that falls short of his requirements.

That may lead to a more useful discussion. Smile

Sooty_1
Sooty_1 Critique Team 41181 forum posts United Kingdom196 Constructive Critique Points
4 Nov 2012 - 6:09 PM

ISO was standardised for film before digital became popular, and used the ASA as a reference.
Yes, digital changes the amplification of the sensor dependent on the ISO selected, but for light metering purposes, the ISO scale is equivalent of the ASA scale. Thus 100 ISO is the same as 100 ASA when using an external meter. 1600 ISO is equivalent to 1600 ASA, etc.

User_Removed
4 Nov 2012 - 7:34 PM


Quote:
Yes, digital changes the amplification of the sensor dependent on the ISO selected, but for light metering purposes, the ISO scale is equivalent of the ASA scale. Thus 100 ISO is the same as 100 ASA when using an external meter. 1600 ISO is equivalent to 1600 ASA, etc.

Have you actually tested that using both a separate meter and a built-in meter, Sooty?

I have and it didn't work. And the difference was not constant throughout the ISO/ASA range.

Typically (and I did this using a Nikon D300 camera and a Weston Master V meter about 4 years ago) there was about 1EV difference at ISO 100 and 2 EV difference at ISO 1600. I started to look into the reasons why the two scales differed but got bogged-down in logarithmic theory. Eventually I concluded that it didn't really matter as the Weston gave me perfectly exposed pictures with film in my RB67 and the D300 gave me perfectly exposed pictures with its internal metering.


.

Last Modified By User_Removed at 4 Nov 2012 - 7:35 PM
Sooty_1
Sooty_1 Critique Team 41181 forum posts United Kingdom196 Constructive Critique Points
4 Nov 2012 - 8:21 PM

The ISO system uses the same arithmetic progression as the ASA scale. Forgetting individual camera's metering, 100 ISO is the same as 100 ASA. Doubling the film speed to 200 ISO is the same as 200 ASA, and so on. The logarithmic ISO corresponds to the old DIN system, and is not usually expressed nowadays (100 ASA/ISO =21 DIN, 400 = 24 DIN, 800 = 27 DIN etc).

LF, your differences in metering results are not down to the scale in use, but differences in individual meters. Have you calibrated them? Either of them? Every meter will have slight differences in sensitivity, but two separate meters will usually differ somewhere.
Yes, I have tested the various meters and cameras I have used, and most meters require some compensation adjustment somewhere. But that is comparing one to another, not to the standard scale. It's like tuning guitars....each one is in tune with itself, but not necessarily standard tuning..as you find out when you play together. You can tune each guitar to the other, but they might not be tuned to the exact standard pitch. That doesn't change the scale of notes that correspond to exact frequencies, but you might not be playing them exactly.

Nick

Paul Morgan
Paul Morgan e2 Member 1314968 forum postsPaul Morgan vcard England6 Constructive Critique Points
4 Nov 2012 - 8:54 PM


Quote: Is there a fully manual digital camera? Where you get dials instead of buttons. Like a digital version of a Nikon FM2. Or is this too much to ask these days?

Fuji X100 does come very close, as does there new CSC`s or the Leica M8/9.

Last Modified By Paul Morgan at 4 Nov 2012 - 8:55 PM
petebfrance
4 Nov 2012 - 8:54 PM


Quote: using a Nikon D300 camera and a Weston Master V meter about 4 years ago)

I'm not sure that this is absolute proof. The accuracy of the D300 measurement of ISO may be in question, eg. DXO (???): :
Nikon D300 DXO
If you look under the 'measurements' tab at ISO the D300 appears to be not so accurate, but I don't really know how accurate DXO is!

Last Modified By petebfrance at 4 Nov 2012 - 8:57 PM
Paul Morgan
Paul Morgan e2 Member 1314968 forum postsPaul Morgan vcard England6 Constructive Critique Points
4 Nov 2012 - 9:10 PM


Quote: I'm not sure that this is absolute proof. The accuracy of the D300 measurement of ISO may be in question, eg. DXO (???): :

All camera and hand held metering is like that, why do you think digital meters have customizable calibration.

joolsb
joolsb  927115 forum posts Switzerland38 Constructive Critique Points
5 Nov 2012 - 9:54 AM

If you want proper manual, you could always mate a digital back to a manual MF camera like an RB 67 or a classic 'blad... Not cheap, mind. Wink

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139392 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
5 Nov 2012 - 10:18 AM

I suspect the OP just wants something on which you can use dials rather than buttons. Wink

No doubt he'll clarify.

Madhatter58
6 Nov 2012 - 6:05 PM

Actually what I was getting at is this. I've got a Nikon FM2 and wondered why there wasn't a camera like this on the market that was digital. Something simple, fully manual only. Select your aperture then set your shutter speed to get the exposure required (or vice versa) then away you go. That's all. No need for the sarcasm thanks.

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