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tomcat
tomcat e2 Member 95916 forum poststomcat vcard United Kingdom15 Constructive Critique Points
12 Nov 2011 - 11:00 PM


Quote: The Court didn't accept his "nicht schuldig" plea and sentenced him to hang.

Whether he knew or not is immaterial - Those courts were set up as a figurehead to show the rest of the world that all was not in vain - not a lot different than our own Great Train robbers, who certainly received disproportionate sentences for the crime committed, just to satisfy and hopefully keep the then incumbent government in power.


Got to go, there is an interesting programme on Sky, or have we all cancelled our subscriptionsWink

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12 Nov 2011 - 11:00 PM

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mikehit
mikehit  56474 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
13 Nov 2011 - 3:31 PM


Quote: A long-standing, fed from the top down notion of getting the story at almost any cost? Should that be the case, it could only be a matter of time before such hedonistic instincts got exposed and that those running such organisations should be deemed morally and legally responsible.

I agree with that compeltely. But people are beating up the Murdochs (I got it right that time, Ketch Smile) specifically over the NoW hacking scandal. If they want to taok about corporate governance that is what they should be questionig them about.


Quote: As for being blamed for events that happened five years before he grabbed the tiller - well any 'due diligence' check when taking over such a role would have identified that something was not entirely right. That it took five years for him to do nothing suggests a certain level of complicity perhaps?

So when a CEO takes over he has to do a 'due diligence' check on all dealings within that company lest he is then blamed for being complicit in them? That comment should be posted alongside the Miss World hopefuls who blatherd on about wanting world peace to show how much they understood the world's issues.

ketch
ketch e2 Member 6770 forum postsketch vcard Turks and Caicos Islands50 Constructive Critique Points
13 Nov 2011 - 4:40 PM


Quote: So when a CEO takes over he has to do a 'due diligence' check on all dealings within that company lest he is then blamed for being complicit in them?

Well that seems like quite a reasonable thing to expect and an equally reasonable thing to undertake too. I have had two or three jobs where I have been directly answerable to the board (one as a CEO) and each time I have been careful to check that there are no 'serious' skeletal structures lurking in the deeper recesses of the cupboard - its human nature, you don't want to get tarnished by someone else's sh*t do you.

Mike - I think it may have been a freudian slip but Maxwell was an inspired misnaming (Radio 4 last week interesting half hour programme on him - what a crim!).

Wink

jondf
jondf  82475 forum posts
13 Nov 2011 - 8:33 PM


Quote: ....what a crim!

Never underestimate what someone will do when they're desperate, particularly when it's their own company at stake .....Maxwell is a prime example.

The Goldman Sachs/Merril Lynch fiasco is another. When things go wrong, folk will plough on regardless of the consequences, so consumed are they with their own sense of righteousness. They've been successful on a grand scale and cannot face up to failure.

mikehit
mikehit  56474 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
14 Nov 2011 - 9:09 AM


Quote: I have been careful to check that there are no 'serious' skeletal structures lurking in the deeper recesses of the cupboard

And that is the problem. Define 'serious'. And who is going to tell you if there was anything.
Don't forget that this hacking was known about years previously and had led to court cases and significant settlements. The only reason that it reached the level it has is because of the sad and highly emotive Milly Dowler case. If it had not been for that, I am not sure we could say hand on heart that the paper would have suffered the level of opprobrium that it has. My point is that 'serious' can change.

With regards 'due diligence' the idea of protecting informants has become so engrained in the press that I get the feeling it becomes a case of 'ask no questions...' and that needs to change because it has led to very much hands off management which is never a good thing.



Quote: Mike - I think it may have been a freudian slip but Maxwell was an inspired misnaming (Radio 4 last week interesting half hour programme on him - what a crim!).

Perhaps it was - I heard the same programme and it was morbidly fascinating. A case of say something assertively enough and someone will believe you.

jondf
jondf  82475 forum posts
14 Nov 2011 - 3:22 PM


Quote: .....say something assertively enough and someone will believe you.


Indeed. The Tories have been getting away with it for centuries....

mikehit
mikehit  56474 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
14 Nov 2011 - 3:59 PM

...and Labour....admittedly not centuries becuse they haven't been in existence for that long but they caught on mighty quick.

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102289 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
16 Nov 2011 - 12:32 PM


Quote: ...and Labour....admittedly not centuries becuse they haven't been in existence for that long but they caught on mighty quick.

Absolutely! The only way supposed Labour or supposed Socialists can come to power is to give up on their beliefs and become Tories like Blair and his gang - and Wilson, Callaghan and Kinnock for that matter.

RichardN00
16 Nov 2011 - 12:46 PM

With political perties relying more on Focus Groups and surveys in an attempt to become electable rather than policies or dogma, is it any wonder that they are all starting to look the same.

A bit like all cars starting looking the same because they are using the same software and design rules in an attempt to become fuel efficient.

Zatoichi
Zatoichi  5707 forum posts United Kingdom
16 Nov 2011 - 12:57 PM


Quote: With political perties relying more on Focus Groups and surveys in an attempt to become electable rather than policies or dogma, is it any wonder that they are all starting to look the same.

A bit like all cars starting looking the same because they are using the same software and design rules in an attempt to become fuel efficient.

Spot on, as recently witnessed in the US when potential Presidents were asked about policy - it just throws them into a world of confusion. Unfortunately UK politics is slowly becoming body posture and wearing the right tie, at least around election time.

mikehit
mikehit  56474 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
16 Nov 2011 - 1:06 PM

I wonder what would have happened if Ken Clarke had become Conservative Leader, he certainly does not fit that mould!! Instead the Tory Blue Rinse brigade chose that 'nice man' Ian...er...Ian...damn, thingummyjig.

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110269 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
16 Nov 2011 - 2:25 PM


Quote: say something assertively enough and someone will believe you.


a technique used by many contributors here too Wink

monstersnowman
16 Nov 2011 - 3:16 PM


Quote: With political perties relying more on Focus Groups and surveys in an attempt to become electable rather than policies or dogma, is it any wonder that they are all starting to look the same.

A bit like all cars starting looking the same because they are using the same software and design rules in an attempt to become fuel efficient.

Spot on, as recently witnessed in the US when potential Presidents were asked about policy - it just throws them into a world of confusion. Unfortunately UK politics is slowly becoming body posture and wearing the right tie, at least around election time.

It is pretty safe to say though that we deserve this ... if we really all voted just on policy and substance of the leader we would just get that but they know we take image very seriously. Hague was bald, that lost him votes, Foot was a scarecrow, that lost him votes, Kinnock was ginger (and I can say this without fear of being gingist as I am from a ginger family), ... we get what we deserve.

Zatoichi
Zatoichi  5707 forum posts United Kingdom
16 Nov 2011 - 5:00 PM


Quote: It is pretty safe to say though that we deserve this ... if we really all voted just on policy and substance of the leader we would just get that but they know we take image very seriously. Hague was bald, that lost him votes, Foot was a scarecrow, that lost him votes, Kinnock was ginger (and I can say this without fear of being gingist as I am from a ginger family), ... we get what we deserve.

Maybe so. However, there is a great deal of effort that goes into avoiding politics, policy and debate. Our media must carry the can for that. I don't believe we as a people place emphasis on how someone looks and therefore vote accordingly. No doubt some do. It was interesting during the last election in the UK watching the media - Sky in particular was appalling with so much to talk about they were primary culprits in avoiding the political debate focusing attention to body posture etc, that's why I think we are moving towards a US system of keep the people dumb. Obama been the first black US president, so what? His colour should be irrelevant. A great narrator and figure head for 'another agenda', the role of the president is ceremonial - give a great speech about this and that, say the right things without actually saying what you'll do or how you'll do it, in reality he's Bush III. Cameron is a PR expert and hardly has a track record for being in a position to run the country. Wayne Rooney plays for England because he is an amazing football talent not because he is measured by his IQ, hair transplant or what he wears. If only our politicians were measured the same way.

There is a propaganda machine that is very much alive and kicking, its up to us to wake up to it.

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102289 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
16 Nov 2011 - 5:48 PM


Quote: Maybe so. However, there is a great deal of effort that goes into avoiding politics, policy and debate. Our media must carry the can for that. I don't believe we as a people place emphasis on how someone looks and therefore vote accordingly. No doubt some do. It was interesting during the last election in the UK watching the media - Sky in particular was appalling with so much to talk about they were primary culprits in avoiding the political debate focusing attention to body posture etc, that's why I think we are moving towards a US system of keep the people dumb. Obama been the first black US president, so what? His colour should be irrelevant. A great narrator and figure head for 'another agenda', the role of the president is ceremonial - give a great speech about this and that, say the right things without actually saying what you'll do or how you'll do it, in reality he's Bush III. Cameron is a PR expert and hardly has a track record for being in a position to run the country. Wayne Rooney plays for England because he is an amazing football talent not because he is measured by his IQ, hair transplant or what he wears. If only our politicians were measured the same way.


I agree. For me Obama is a huge disappointment: At least the basically honest Jimmy Carter tried to some extent to buck the corrupt system of the US administration but then look what happened to him: That abomination called Reagan took over and was largely responsible, like Nixon before him, for many thousands of deaths in Latin America with his promotion of liberated "free trade" capitalism. This "Free Trade Capitalism" which was forced upon Latin America with "shock and awe" by the CIA and Milton Friedman's economic thugs, the Chicago Gang, undermining democracy i.e. the rich got richer and the poor got poorer.
So as Zatoichy so rightly points out:
Quote: There is a propaganda machine that is very much alive and kicking, its up to us to wake up to it.

I don't think we are as well-informed as many of us think we are. We have an overload of info but much of it is disinformation as it's nearly all processed by the same mainstream corporate machine.

Last Modified By gcarth at 16 Nov 2011 - 5:52 PM

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