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King Fishers Emerging... Reassurance Needed.

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sherlob
sherlob e2 Member 82271 forum postssherlob vcard United Kingdom123 Constructive Critique Points
15 Jul 2013 - 4:38 PM

There seems in recent months to have been a plethora of fantastic images of King Fishers emerging from water. Most of these are excellent action shots - freezing in a frame something that most of us are not likely to ever witness (never mind photograph). I should imagine I am not on my own in thinking - wow - how's that done?

A couple of years back I did some digging on the techniques used. Amongst the plethora of options for using motion triggers etc, one technique in particular worries me - using a bucket of fish to bait the birds into diving within a predictable field of view. I have read in the past that this is not a remotely safe/ bird friendly technique as it has a potentially high risk for bird injury from either crashing into the sides or bottom of the bucket used. I'm pretty sure that some of the wonderful photography we have seen in recent months utilises this technique, but this shot in particular appears to show the outline of a submerged bucket.

Don't get me wrong I'm not wanting to be critical - and I am not posting this to single out any one photographers technique - this is a fabulous image and my concern relates to ALL such photographs.

I would like some reassurance from those in the know that the techniques used are not risking these birds for the sake of a fabulous image.

Regards,

Adam

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15 Jul 2013 - 4:38 PM

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pulsar69
pulsar69  101611 forum posts United Kingdom6 Constructive Critique Points
15 Jul 2013 - 5:03 PM

I can certainly see what you mean with that shot and can imagine it can be quite dangerous for a bird thinking it is diving into water to find itself nose first into a bucket ! I will be thinking twice now before blindly voting on what looks like a fab shot and actually is just staged , nature shots should be natural , its a bit like taking a fab shot of a an African lion - in a zoo, pretty empty.

Its a similar thing to when you see these 30 something fat blokes sitting at fishing lakes with their seven rods 10 nets and electronic alarms , hardly what i would call fishing , why not just go to tesco and stick one of their fresh fish on your hook.

Maybe that shot should have been put in the captive animals section Wink not the nature and wildlife one

keithh
keithh  1022760 forum posts Wallis and Futuna29 Constructive Critique Points
15 Jul 2013 - 5:09 PM

Cheating rotters. Wink

Imagine putting a15lb pike in the bucket. .....goes off developing an idea.

killyy
killyy  3 United Kingdom
15 Jul 2013 - 5:13 PM


Quote: There seems in recent months to have been a plethora of fantastic images of King Fishers emerging from water. Most of these are excellent action shots - freezing in a frame something that most of us are not likely to ever witness (never mind photograph). I should imagine I am not on my own in thinking - wow - how's that done?

A couple of years back I did some digging on the techniques used. Amongst the plethora of options for using motion triggers etc, one technique in particular worries me - using a bucket of fish to bait the birds into diving within a predictable field of view. I have read in the past that this is not a remotely safe/ bird friendly technique as it has a potentially high risk for bird injury from either crashing into the sides or bottom of the bucket used. I'm pretty sure that some of the wonderful photography we have seen in recent months utilises this technique, but this shot in particular appears to show the outline of a submerged bucket.

Don't get me wrong I'm not wanting to be critical - and I am not posting this to single out any one photographers technique - this is a fabulous image and my concern relates to ALL such photographs.

I would like some reassurance from those in the know that the techniques used are not risking these birds for the sake of a fabulous image.

Regards,

Adam

Hi Adam I have heard of this Technique but never tried it. I have never heard of a Kingfisher coming to grief because of it - They are amazing birds and seem to cope with the hazardous conditions of our rivers - Both natural and man made.

Regards

Mike

sherlob
sherlob e2 Member 82271 forum postssherlob vcard United Kingdom123 Constructive Critique Points
15 Jul 2013 - 5:15 PM

If the technique is safe I haven't an issue - regardless there is a good degree of camera craft going on. The problem is - I am inclined to believe that this isn't a safe technique.

Keith - rather you than me. I'd like to keep all of my fingers Wink

killyy
killyy  3 United Kingdom
15 Jul 2013 - 5:16 PM


Quote: I can certainly see what you mean with that shot and can imagine it can be quite dangerous for a bird thinking it is diving into water to find itself nose first into a bucket ! I will be thinking twice now before blindly voting on what looks like a fab shot and actually is just staged , nature shots should be natural , its a bit like taking a fab shot of a an African lion - in a zoo, pretty empty.

Its a similar thing to when you see these 30 something fat blokes sitting at fishing lakes with their seven rods 10 nets and electronic alarms , hardly what i would call fishing , why not just go to tesco and stick one of their fresh fish on your hook.

Maybe that shot should have been put in the captive animals section Wink not the nature and wildlife one

Sounds like a plan - Lets include any photos taken from a hide and any taken in a garden with feedersWink

Regards

Mike

lawbert
lawbert  71684 forum posts England15 Constructive Critique Points
15 Jul 2013 - 6:12 PM

Yet another case of the photograph coming before the welfare of the subjectSadSadSad

Surely Nature Photography is all about the welfare of any species and not to invade its habitat and endanger its survival.

The EC, HC and GE dont help with this as there are many togs that care simply for an award rather than the subject,

I do recall a poor Little Owl that got hammered a while ago by numerous togs and most of them won awards.SadSadSad

keithh
keithh  1022760 forum posts Wallis and Futuna29 Constructive Critique Points
15 Jul 2013 - 6:20 PM

This technique however has been used by at least one of the UK's leading wildlife photographers.

Ray12
Ray12 e2 Member 171 forum postsRay12 vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
15 Jul 2013 - 6:31 PM

I would like to add that people who do take some of the amazing pictures of the King Fishers how many of them have a licence? According to English Nature you are required by law to have a licence to photograph breeding King Fishers and Barn Owls.

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110165 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
15 Jul 2013 - 7:38 PM


Quote: I would like to add that people who do take some of the amazing pictures of the King Fishers how many of them have a licence? According to English Nature you are required by law to have a licence to photograph breeding King Fishers and Barn Owls.

I've met at least one self-avowed "Wildlife Photographer" who was proudly showing me pictures taken at a nest site. He got very irate when I asked him if he had a license, arguing that people who had one probably didn't know what they were doing, whereas he was an expert and therefore it didn't apply to him etc etc

(Same as another plonker I met who captured and took home a Dormouse, photographed it in his studio, then killed it because it was against the law to release it back into the wild. I was threatened with violence when I asked his name so I could report him to the relevant authorities Sad )

Scutter
Scutter e2 Member 61742 forum postsScutter vcard United Kingdom6 Constructive Critique Points
15 Jul 2013 - 7:52 PM

On the other hand it could be argued that it didn't have to hunt for the fish too hard - which is what it has to spend most of its life doing. It's a bit like being served up a ready meal rather than having to go to the faff of making it from scratch. Just another point of view.............TongueWink

killyy
killyy  3 United Kingdom
15 Jul 2013 - 8:42 PM


Quote: I would like to add that people who do take some of the amazing pictures of the King Fishers how many of them have a licence? According to English Nature you are required by law to have a licence to photograph breeding King Fishers and Barn Owls.

It is an offense to photograph Kingfishers and all schedule 1 birds at or near the nest site and there is a quota of 37 per year for Kingfishers one is not needed from a public hide and a lot of photographs have been taken from such a hide.

Last Modified By killyy at 15 Jul 2013 - 8:42 PM
Paul Morgan
Paul Morgan e2 Member 1314897 forum postsPaul Morgan vcard England6 Constructive Critique Points
15 Jul 2013 - 9:00 PM

I got to see a few the other day, they had a larder full of fish Smile

There were also a few nice big perch feeding on these.

p7130064-3.jpg

Dave_Canon
15 Jul 2013 - 9:47 PM

A leading UK wildlife photographer used a set up with a submerged bowl to get such shots and explained in detail at my camera club how he did this. I have met the individual several times and I cannot believe that he would do anything that was harmful to wildlife. He explained that they used a rounded bowl which has the deepest point in the middle. The reason for this is that the fish become aware of the Kingfisher at the last second and dive to the middle which is also ideal for the Kingfisher who also dives to the middle. Come to think of it this cannot be much fun for the fish.

He did offer me a chance to take such photographs at this temporary set up (for a fee as he make his living from photography). It was very tempting as I would love to take such excellent shots of Kingfishers. I turned him down simply because I would not be able to use such images in wildlife competitions because of the artificial elements.

Dave

bigalguitarpicker
16 Jul 2013 - 12:12 AM

"Knickers" and "in a twist" come to mind. You'd think some one had suggested shooting a few Kingfishers and photographing their tiny corpses! Could I suggest No.9 shot? It brings down Snipe without detriment to their table qualities. This, I think, is on a par with agonising about "gardening" ie, snipping away grass from around a toadstool before photographing it. Damage to the environment, ecology, etc., ad nauseam, etc.,etc. Sad

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