Login or Join Now

Upload your photos, chat, win prizes and much more

Username:
Password:
Remember Me

Can't Access your Account?

New to ePHOTOzine? Join ePHOTOzine for free!

Like 0

Local Camera Clubs ?

Join Now

Join ePHOTOzine, the friendliest photography community.

Upload photos, chat with photographers, win prizes and much more for free!

Graham_Rainham
29 Apr 2012 - 6:08 PM


Quote: I try to wind up judges these days and know I've won when I get comments such as "I don't know what to say as I'm not sure what it is I'm looking at!" Wink

Judge baiting is a lost art... All to often the wind up comes in the form of an obscure image that is of little merit and poor quality, produced with the intended objective...

A good wind up, is often appreciated when it is cleverly thought out and has good humour.

Recently, I was presented with a parody of The Rhine river by Andreas Gursky, which was not only a reasonable quality, but was a great spoof, as it was both in context and current.

Another was a close representation of a Taylor Wessing winning image.

The humour in presenting these images was obvious and resulted in not only appropriate comments, but an appropriate score for the technical and artistic skills in recreation.

Given over 100 images to judge in as many minutes (if you are lucky) isn't easy, and good humour really does help. Trying to score points off the judges inability to "Get" an image, may amuse some, but really makes it hard work and slows down the flow of the evening. Given that the "wind up" image was deliberate, it deserves to be dismissed in the same way as a poor quality image might be.

Sponsored Links
Sponsored Links 
29 Apr 2012 - 6:08 PM

Join ePHOTOzine for free and remove these adverts.

SlowSong
SlowSong e2 Member 64344 forum postsSlowSong vcard England28 Constructive Critique Points
29 Apr 2012 - 6:35 PM

Perhaps you're one of the better judges Graham and don't deserve such treatment. Unfortunately, not all of them put themselves across as understanding different concepts and therefore manage to miss the mark, which does none of us any favours. You get to know those who are OK and those that are not so secure.

I think we were being a bit flippant regarding judge-baiting as you put it and any abstract image could be construed as a wind-up, but if the judge dismisses it with purile and idiotic remarks because of his or her prejudices rather than an apt humorous comment as you suggest then that's photographer baiting, not the reverse. Smile

Big Bri
Big Bri  1315557 forum posts England
29 Apr 2012 - 8:32 PM

Interesting comment:


Quote: but an appropriate score for the technical and artistic skills in recreation.

I'm curious about the Gursky copy.
Firstly, because I thought the original was quite boring and would expect it to score very low in a typical club judging session. If an image like this scored higher, is that just because the judge was aware of how much it sold for, and jumped on the bandwagon?
Secondly because although the original may have merits that I didn't pick up on, a copy of someone else's work does not even have the artistic vision, it's just a copy.

So I would have thought the correct scoring for a copy of the Rhine photo would go like this:
"If you were Andreas Gursky I would give this 10 points, as surely it's a masterpiece even if I am too blind to see it. However, you are not, therefore I award it 2 points"

(Can you tell I haven't done the judging course) Wink

cathal
cathal  9492 forum posts Ireland4 Constructive Critique Points
29 Apr 2012 - 10:36 PM


Quote: I try to wind up judges these days and know I've won when I get comments such as "I don't know what to say as I'm not sure what it is I'm looking at!" Wink

Well, if I don't understand a picture, and if I can't see any merit in the picture, then I will not, by default, give it top marks. But it all depends on the criteria which the judge is having to score against, and the level / standard to which the competition is being judged. As an example, if it is an internal club competition, and a beginners / novice category, then my comments and critiques are far more sympathetic than judging a national / federation level competition.

I will always endeavour to give each and every picture a full critique, particularly in junior / novice / beginners categories though time is the enemy of procrastination. I've had nights where over 120 images have been presented, the evening lasts two hours, and then you've got a twenty minute break in the middle. If you can work the time well, you've now got sixty seconds to judge each image. We won't be doing a full, in depth and detailed masterclass in that time scale then, will we?

Photoshop! This is a subject worthy of a raging debate in itself. My own personal taste is for straight images, but that does not mean I won't judge a heavily photoshopped picture fairly. However, if it's been done badly, or effects have been overused or applied in a heavy handed way and start to intrude on the image, then I'll note that. You can end up with an image that in my view has ceased to be a photograph and has instead transferred into the realm of graphic art. But I can only judge a picture that is put in front of me.

Then, there is the scenario of recognisable and well known locations. Yet another shot of Durdle Dor, or that feckin bridge in the lake district, and numerous other national and international locations that have been done to death. So, do I judge that shot of Durdle Dor against the work of Charlie Waite, David Not or what we've seen at national level? My own preference, is to judge against the work presented on the evening.

Some competitions are more challenging to judge than others. Set subjects, for example, can mean an otherwise faultless shot doesn't score well as it doesn't fit with the theme of the set subject. Stupid? Well, no as the whole point is to make an image fit a specification, and how well it does that has to be considered alongside the quality of the image. On a personal note though, some set themes are so obscure then you really are up against it.

Oh, and when the club has had a studio night and the next competition evening some poor unfortunate judge has to score fifteen pictures of the same girl in the same pose in the same set with the same lights... please! (As an aside, if the photographer hasn't posed the model and set the lighting up for the studio shot, how much credit can they reasonably claim for the picture?)

Just as you get different standards of judges, you do get different standards of work presented for judging. I try to avoid being cruel, rude, and harsh and so long as times allow, if a particularly weak image is presented I will do my best to point the photographer in the direction of improvement. However, I'm a firm believer in that you should shoot to please yourself first, and the judge second.

My name is Cathal, and I've been a judge for seven years...

I could go on, but I think you get the other side of the coin now...

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110227 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
29 Apr 2012 - 10:49 PM


Quote: However, I'm a firm believer in that you should shoot to please yourself first, and the judge second.


Absolutely, in fact I believe in shooting to please myself and if anyone else likes my work that's an added bonus, (I never try to shoot for "The Judge" because, as I have found and seen, an image that scores 10 with one judge then wins a "Work of Outstanding Merit" in an open competition can just as easily score a 5 with the next judge who sees it Smile )

Last Modified By brian1208 at 29 Apr 2012 - 10:50 PM
Graham_Rainham
29 Apr 2012 - 11:40 PM


Quote: Interesting comment:

but an appropriate score for the technical and artistic skills in recreation.

I'm curious about the Gursky copy.
Firstly, because I thought the original was quite boring and would expect it to score very low in a typical club judging session. If an image like this scored higher, is that just because the judge was aware of how much it sold for, and jumped on the bandwagon?
Secondly because although the original may have merits that I didn't pick up on, a copy of someone else's work does not even have the artistic vision, it's just a copy.

So I would have thought the correct scoring for a copy of the Rhine photo would go like this:
"If you were Andreas Gursky I would give this 10 points, as surely it's a masterpiece even if I am too blind to see it. However, you are not, therefore I award it 2 points"

(Can you tell I haven't done the judging course) Wink

The key word is "appropriate", which could be quite high for technical quality and equally high for the artistic recreation (albeit a spoof or copy)

On the issue of "artistic vision" - There is very little that can be considered as original and often a quick search of the internet reveals many images of striking similarity. Some locations, such as Dungeness are so often photographed that we recognise virtually every feature and subject of the place.



Quote: fifteen pictures of the same girl in the same pose in the same set with the same lights

This really did raise a smile, as I too have had similar experiences, where the club has had an outing to a "reenactment" or something and try as I may, I find it hard to stay positive about, multiple images of some "Herr Flick" look-a-like Wink

One the other hand, there are some nights, when I come away truly inspired by the images I have seen, and this encourages me to try different things and to strive to improve my own standards.

Mynett
Mynett e2 Member 6137 forum postsMynett vcard United Kingdom6 Constructive Critique Points
30 Apr 2012 - 1:03 AM

I have been a member of the local CC for a year, and find it amusing.... but this week was the best, I entered this image Golden moments and the Judge could not get it..... he thought that the right hand side was perhaps a horse, he liked the girl on the left but could not see what she was pointing or looking at.... think he should go to spec savers and retire? It left me feeling a fool for putting it in the comp at all, and I will probably not bother again. I have met some nice people and learned a bit more of the craft, but the judges can often be very hurtful and in this case downright rude.

CaptivePhotons
CaptivePhotons e2 Member 111531 forum postsCaptivePhotons vcard England2 Constructive Critique Points
30 Apr 2012 - 6:58 AM


Quote: he liked the girl on the left but could not see what she was pointing or looking at..

I'm with the judge on this one, if you had not have put the description in, I too would have struggled to make sense of it.

SlowSong
SlowSong e2 Member 64344 forum postsSlowSong vcard England28 Constructive Critique Points
30 Apr 2012 - 7:31 AM


Quote: Quote: fifteen pictures of the same girl in the same pose in the same set with the same lights

Had to laugh about that one. Spot on. The people that do enter these images into comps where they've had no technical input at all are usually ribbed mercilessly by our other members. I think that's cheating really. Grin I'd hate to be a judge - I'd want to slag everything off, personally speaking. Wink

Just Jas
Just Jas  1225751 forum posts England1 Constructive Critique Points
30 Apr 2012 - 10:27 AM


Quote: Quote: fifteen pictures of the same girl in the same pose in the same set with the same lights

In my day we rarely ever saw any of these pics actually printed. Grin

SlowSong
SlowSong e2 Member 64344 forum postsSlowSong vcard England28 Constructive Critique Points
30 Apr 2012 - 10:43 AM


Quote: Quote: fifteen pictures of the same girl in the same pose in the same set with the same lights

In my day we rarely ever saw any of these pics actually printed. Grin

LOL! Well slap your wrist ..... Wink

cathal
cathal  9492 forum posts Ireland4 Constructive Critique Points
30 Apr 2012 - 12:49 PM


Quote: In my day we rarely ever saw any of these pics actually printed. Grin

Today, thanks to the joys of digital projection, there is very little "investment" required on the part of the participant to enter an image. No print cost, no mount cost... just click "save" and email the file to the comp. sec.!

There is no reason for a judge to be rude, and simply being rude by itself is not helpful. I've seen work that has absolutely blown me away, and I've also seen work that, well, lets just say didn't quite make the grade...

I once had to judge a picture that really wasn't meeting the standard. It was small, grainy, and the overall quality was low. But I always like to see the qualities in the image first. So, the composition wasn't too bad, and the person had seen something they liked, and made the effort to capture that and make an image. So, I talked up what I liked, and touched briefly upon what I didn't, mainly the technical quality... At the end of the night there was a young lad in the room, about 15 years of age, grinning like a chess ire cat. He came to me and thanked me. It was his picture, it was his first ever competition entry, and had been taken on his mobile phone (this was before they could take half decent snaps too). He was encouraged by my comments, and keen to do more, try more things, and enter more comments. What would his reaction have been if I had "laid into him" with a tirade of vulgarity and the bleeding obvious, about how the technical quality of his image wasn't quite there? Would he still be snapping away?

I've been on the receiving end of judges too, and there are good ones and bad ones. I'm under the CACC (Chiltern Area) who, a few years back, were seeking younger, more wordily judges who were comfortable with all the trends, styles and technologies now shaping the landscape of club photography. At the end of the evening, if nothing else the judge is there as an independent assessor. Each entrant is subject to the same judge. Good or bad.

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110227 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
30 Apr 2012 - 2:30 PM


Quote: At the end of the evening, if nothing else the judge is there as an independent assessor. Each entrant is subject to the same judge. Good or bad.

and thank goodness that some people have the energy and enthusiasm to take up the judges task as, overall, they provide good information and, even when they don't manage this, good entertainment.

(Please be aware that most if not all of my "Anti-judge" comments were tongue-in-cheek, I spent my last 10+ years having to give careful and considered performance critiques as a Training Manager and Career Counsellor at work so I know how hard it is, which is why I will never be a photgographic judge on the club circuit Wink )

NEWMANP
NEWMANP e2 Member 61583 forum postsNEWMANP vcard United Kingdom574 Constructive Critique Points
30 Apr 2012 - 4:21 PM

I will never forget one night at our club in the eighties when we had an absolute wizard of a frps photographer come and judge for us. initials J.M. and a perchant for red hats in pictures from Nottingham. i wouldnt say more.

the first slide came up and he took one look and said Crap - next ! i loved his style, by the end of the night half of us were in stitches, the other half in tears. i have to say there are some rubbish judges and some members are way to competitive but hey its not all about that. there are also some fabulous judges and some exceptional lecturers on the circuit.

Clubs and Bolsover in particular has been a major part of my life for over 30 years and its been a most pleasurable experience for all of those years, the outings, the practical nights, the friendships, the competiton has been superb. why anyone would knock clubs ill never know.

Phil

Last Modified By NEWMANP at 30 Apr 2012 - 4:22 PM
Just Jas
Just Jas  1225751 forum posts England1 Constructive Critique Points
1 May 2012 - 10:49 AM


Quote: .....It was small,........

At one club comp a member submitted a picture one inch square.

The judge picked it up and said in surprise "Why is so small?"

To which the member replied "Well, I've incorporated all the crops that have been suggested by previous judges".

The judged merely smiled and passed onto the next submitted picture.

Over half a century ago, but I'd guess things in general haven't changed much! Grin

Last Modified By Just Jas at 1 May 2012 - 10:51 AM

Add a Comment

You must be a member to leave a comment

Username:
Password:
Remember me:
Un-tick this box if you want to login each time you visit.