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mikehit
mikehit  56692 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
15 Jan 2013 - 7:09 PM


Quote:
Blimey, next thing when you go to see a doctor you'll expect him to have a GCSE in biology or something Wink

Gillian McKeith never bothered with such things Tongue

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paulcookphotography


Quote: I agree with your sentiment, Paul but surely "an established wedding photographer with several years under his belt" would immediately go to a typical venue and shoot some frames? If he was going to buy a D700, it's a fair question, but he owns it already.

By the way, I have no problem with even a rank amateur selling services if they can do so but it reflects badly on the rest of the profession is they screw it up.

I can see your point, but nobody should ever feel (or be made to feel) inferior because they asked a simple question. I personally never shoot high ISO on my cameras (mostly because i have never been in a situation where i have needed to), even though i may have had the camera a couple of years, so would feel perfectly justified to ask others how it performs, particularly in a situation that i may be using it for. Obviously i would take some test shots first before using it on a paid shoot.

However, someone asking about camera performance, in my view, does not for one minute say anything about their photographic experience, ability, knowledge or quality. It shows they are looking for opinion/advice, which should be commended

janeez
janeez e2 Member 61195 forum postsjaneez vcard United Kingdom8 Constructive Critique Points
15 Jan 2013 - 11:39 PM

Paul, you have put all your responses fairly and succinctly.

From what I remember when at school we had a teacher who taught us and we asked questions and they were answered! We weren't expected to just go and found out ourselves without any help. As we go through life we constantly ask questions and most of the time someone, somewhere will provide an answer! Even if it's the price of something in the blessed supermarket!

When I got my first SLR (it was a very long time ago) my brother in law helped me no end and I can't remember him telling me to go and get a book and not be so lazy.

When I shot my first weddings (friends) I was given some excellent advice from an old friend and professional for over 50 years. He gave this free and with much encouragement to"go for it"! He even gave me his price list so I had an idea of what I could eventually charge any future customers.

Finally, I do not hold with the view that an amateur photographer screwing up causes it to reflect badly on the profession. Quite the opposite. It will only reflect badly on them and the consumer will be left wishing they had employed the services of a proper professional!

Last Modified By janeez at 15 Jan 2013 - 11:42 PM
EG
EG  5 United Kingdom
16 Jan 2013 - 8:29 AM

You can always use the noise as a feature, possibly monochrome it and play with it that's what I've done in the past before smoothing it out.

Good luck just create with post prod you'll find your own style.

Eddie

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
16 Jan 2013 - 9:28 AM


Quote: By the way, I have no problem with even a rank amateur selling services if they can do so but it reflects badly on the rest of the profession is they screw it up.

And there is the problem in a nutshell. If you cannot do a very good job (and that doesn't necessarily mean pleasing the bride because seeing herself in that magnificent white dress is often sufficient) it is better to wait until you can before doing such an important event like a wedding. As has been said many times, 'doing' a wedding is more than a few (or a few hundred) photographs it is more about management of the day on some occasions, some are easier than others, you only need to read here so learn some of the odd occurrences that crop up. I have written and had published one book already and often considered writing another about wedding experiences, it would be a laugh i assure you.

What I said was 'they should at least know the basics and be experienced in all aspects of photography'. Nobody ever stops learning but the sentiment remains. It is easy enough to take shots at different ISO ratings and look at the results, as it is with apertures and sufficient DoF. It is easy to take test shots with measured objects to see when with each of your lenses and apertures, you have sufficient for your needs. That assumes you cannot use the DOF calculator available on the net.

You learn far more and also much faster by your own tests and efforts than asking on here. I, as a 72 year old, have asked questions purely out of interest to see the difference in management of weddings given that somebody once mentioned on here that up to 10,000 shots might be taken - astonishing given I used to take 50 max. But to be offering services such as wedding photography without knowing the basics, seems to me to be crass and disrespectful to customers.

The best advice I could give is that given by many before me, go and watch a wedding photographer in action then ask if you can assist at a future occasion FoC of course.

janeez
janeez e2 Member 61195 forum postsjaneez vcard United Kingdom8 Constructive Critique Points
16 Jan 2013 - 10:26 AM


Quote: The best advice I could give is that given by many before me, go and watch a wedding photographer in action then ask if you can assist at a future occasion FoC of course.

I didn't do that. However, I had 30 years experience with my photography. I know my cameras inside out. I have no problem organising my day and people around me and my first weddings were of friends who really wanted me to photograph their big day. I did do an excellent 3 day course on wedding photography as well which really helped.

Most importantly for me though was the fact that I had a demanding face to face sales career which required a high level of people skills. I had to be able to walk into a situation of not knowing the people I was about to meet and be able to get on with them from the word go. Confidence and humour worked very well. Grin Using all these "tools" meant everything went well and now we are building a photography business which is going from strength to strength. Best of all is that it doesn't feel like work even when I have been going for 12 hours!

lemmy
lemmy  71946 forum posts United Kingdom
16 Jan 2013 - 11:25 AM


Quote: Confidence and humour worked very well.

That's the point. You can train a monkey to work a camera well enough. As a professional photographer you have to accept nowadays that pretty much anyone who can afford 500 for a camera can turn out technically good work. What is less common - if not rare - is a sense of humour, a good way with people, all those personal skills.

That is what you are selling. The success of a photographer nowadays lies in that and good business sense.

As far as I can see, if you want to know something technically, just do it and find out for yourself. There is no on-cost to experimentation nowadays.

I can't imagine loosing myself on people, asking for money for my work, without having a thorough grounding in photographic technique and my metier. As a professional, I'd expect people to be asking me for advice, not me them. But I think maybe the meaning of professional has changed and I haven't kept up!

paulcookphotography


Quote:
The best advice I could give is that given by many before me, go and watch a wedding photographer in action then ask if you can assist at a future occasion FoC of course.

In relation to the OP's original question, would that be the best advice? Would watching a photographer or assisting really be the best way to find out what other users of a particular camera model feel about its high ISO capabilities?

I totally agree that anyone starting out in wedding photography, or any other field for that matter, should look at assisting before jumping in at the deep end, but some aspects (particularly brand and model specific) you can only really get from opinion and personal/group testing. I have seen it many times where someone is experiencing some type of characteristic on their camera that the majority of other users dont (only to later find there has been a firmware issue or whatever), or seeing people move to a newer or older model (or different lens) and discovering they dont perform the same under similar conditions. Thats the sort of info and help the photographic community should be there for surely?

lemmy
lemmy  71946 forum posts United Kingdom
16 Jan 2013 - 12:45 PM


Quote: best way to find out what other users of a particular camera model feel about its high ISO capabilities?

Since when was professional photography a matter of what camera to buy? I've been around professional photographers all my working life and the one topic of conversation that was rarely bothered with was the cameras. Can you imagine a group of plumbers in a pub discussing spanners?

The high speed capabilities of almost any camera are good enough for most purposes now. What counts to your clients are not the technicalities (a yawn from their point of view!) but the pictures you turn out. Have you ever heard a wedding couple remark how sharp their pictures are? How clear? How lacking in high ISO noise they are? No, of course not.

They will remember you for your pictures. That is what you are there for and what you would be recommended. The rest is for train-spotters Wink

janeez
janeez e2 Member 61195 forum postsjaneez vcard United Kingdom8 Constructive Critique Points
16 Jan 2013 - 1:03 PM


Quote: They will remember you for your pictures. That is what you are there for and what you would be recommended. The rest is for train-spotters

This is so true. The pictures they want are the ones with all their family and friends in it. They are not interested in grain, ultra sharp, perfect crop and composition. They like your technique, the way you catch an expression, how you start and end your day with them. If you got 4 pictures of great aunt Fanny with her hat taking off in the breeze and it was the only time anyone ever saw her smile then they will want those images. If they were (slightly!) out of focus they would not care or even notice.

I am not saying the other things do not matter, far from it. Those things should and do matter to us but it is not why a bride and groom take us on. As I have said before, how many terrible pictures are put on FB from mobile phones that people love because they are of the moment. Smile

paulcookphotography


Quote: best way to find out what other users of a particular camera model feel about its high ISO capabilities?

Since when was professional photography a matter of what camera to buy? I've been around professional photographers all my working life and the one topic of conversation that was rarely bothered with was the cameras. Can you imagine a group of plumbers in a pub discussing spanners?

The high speed capabilities of almost any camera are good enough for most purposes now. What counts to your clients are not the technicalities (a yawn from their point of view!) but the pictures you turn out. Have you ever heard a wedding couple remark how sharp their pictures are? How clear? How lacking in high ISO noise they are? No, of course not.

They will remember you for your pictures. That is what you are there for and what you would be recommended. The rest is for train-spotters Wink

And since when was asking about high ISO capabilities asking about what camera to buy? Or maybe several sections of these forums should be scrapped as they are actually about cameras and equipment? Or should the forums only be used by amateurs and hobbyists as professionals shouldnt be bugged and bothered with such trivial things? Come on... really?

Oh, and i'm not a wedding photographer, but i have actually heard many newlyweds (and their families) talk about the sharpness/clarity (or lack of) in their wedding pics

Got to say theres some very interesting comments coming out regarding people's attitude to newcomers to the industry and clients alike!

pulsar69
pulsar69  101611 forum posts United Kingdom6 Constructive Critique Points
16 Jan 2013 - 3:32 PM

Very true Paul , Clients do pick up on colour , clarity , focus and composition - its human nature and one of the many reasons someone will book one photographer over another , whether the photographer has yet realised that is another matter .

Yes personal skills and fun are also a massive part of the day , but the comparison of facebook photos falls down - a lot of people do post rubbish photos on facebook and other people like them out of kindness and due to content - but it is the fantasticall bad photos from facebook and such that make people realise that even with a good point and shoot or iphone they still cant do what a professional can do or anywhere near. Once it comes to 7pm at a wedding almost all the camera and phones start churning out blurry shots or flashed to death faces and we have all seen them. Yes they look great on facebook at 200 pixels , but do you see them in peoples houses on the wall or in albums - no.

A truly great photographer which we all aspire to be , knows their equipment inside out and can afford the best that can be bought ( a better camera inevitably makes more opportunities ) has great people skills and probably most important of all is a top class businessman. Thas my view anyway !

paulcookphotography


Quote:
A truly great photographer which we all aspire to be , knows their equipment inside out and can afford the best that can be bought ( a better camera inevitably makes more opportunities ) has great people skills and probably most important of all is a top class businessman. Thas my view anyway !

Absolute rubbish IMO

Someone can know their camera inside out yet may not have the artistic eye or ability to create a great image. Similarly a good/great photographer does not need the best and most expensive camera or know every aspect of it. They merely need to know the aspects that they use or works for them. I know several great photographers that use cameras that arent the lastest models but produce amazing results. Why dont they upgrade? Because they dont need to and doing so wouldn't make much business sense (why spend money on something you dont need).

Many cameras are also aimed at specific aspects of photography (sports and wildlife, etc), so the 'best' is also very subjective. There's a lot of amateur (and supposedly 'pro') photographers out there with amazing pieces of kit that sadly do not have the skill, interest or knowledge to use them.

As far as being a great businessman or having great people skills, well thats really down to the area of photography you specialise in (unless we assume only wedding photographers are 'professional'

Last Modified By paulcookphotography at 16 Jan 2013 - 3:50 PM
keith selmes
16 Jan 2013 - 3:55 PM


Quote: Can you imagine a group of plumbers in a pub discussing spanners?

Yes. They do.

simont
simont  102248 forum posts England4 Constructive Critique Points
16 Jan 2013 - 4:12 PM


Quote: Can you imagine a group of plumbers in a pub discussing spanners?

Spanner ---> "a young woman who makes your nuts go tight"

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