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Steppenwolf
3 Jul 2013 - 7:33 AM


Quote:
I've read quite a few reviews (the Nikon D90 seemed good value) but they mostly deal with features rather than workflow. Do most entry level dSLRs still allow a fairly simple select ISO > focus > set aperture > dial in exposure and shoot procedure? Some Nikon lenses I've seen don't even have an aperture ring on the lens barrel!

Can anyone suggest any models to look at? I figure 10 - 12 MP would be ample to start with.

Aperture control on modern cameras is controlled from the camera body now so you don't need a control on the lens, which is an improvement because the control is obviously in the same place for all lenses - so you don't have to hunt for the aperture ring. The controls themselves vary from camera to camera and, in most cases, the controls are configurable. So typically you have two wheels controlled by thumb and forefinger which can be allocated to aperture and shutter speed. There'll be a button to toggle between MF and AF and there'll be a button to select ISO and a joystick to change it. You can also configure various degrees of automation - such as leaving the camera to set the ISO between set limits, etc, etc.

It's all much more flexible than it used to be in the pre-digital age, but it does mean that when you get a new camera it takes about a month to work out how to set it up and use it properly. Just make sure that the camera you select has enough buttons/configurability to do what you want. Dpreview has details of the camera's user interface in its reviews which are worth checking.

If you're interested in a Nikon I'd go for a s/h D7000, which you should be able to get for about 300 (or slightly more). It's a much newer camera than the D90 and will give you better high ISO - it'll shoot ISO3200 with no trouble in most situations. It's one of the best DSLRs around.

I personally would go for a CSC, but then I like EVFs. I particularly like the fact that you can see what the picture is actually going to look like before you take it - so if you're using manual exposure you can just fiddle with the settings until the picture looks right.

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MichaelMelb_AU


Quote:
I personally would go for a CSC, but then I like EVFs. I particularly like the fact that you can see what the picture is actually going to look like before you take it - so if you're using manual exposure you can just fiddle with the settings until the picture looks right.

Unfortunately it is not always so - in manual mode many cameras show true picture only briefly when the shutter button is half-pressed (this is a new skill for a film photographer to learn), then return to a picture artificially adjusted in brightness to allow for proper picture framing. While very useful, this feature may be a bit overwhelming for a person used to work with purely optical viewfinder. DSLRs with their optical viewfinders still do it old film way - but indicate the exposure in the picture thus allowing it's adjustments without taking the camera away for one's eye. But true, it is not WYSIWIG - it is almost exactly film way.

Steppenwolf
3 Jul 2013 - 1:42 PM


Quote: Unfortunately it is not always so - in manual mode many cameras show true picture only briefly when the shutter button is half-pressed (this is a new skill for a film photographer to learn), then return to a picture artificially adjusted in brightness to allow for proper picture framing.

Who's being pedantic now. Sony cameras allow you the option of configuring the EVF to show the picture as it will look (called "effects on"). You can alternatively select "effects off" in which case the EVF will adjust itself to show the image regardless of camera settings like a DSLR. The advantage of "effects on" is that a) you can see what the picture will look like and b) it gives a bright picture even when light is very bad - if you set the exposure right. But you have the choice. Nikon CSCs don't allow the choice - you just get "effects on", which is fine by me. I think the M4/3 CSCs allow the choice like Sony.

I don't know which EVF cameras "show true picture only briefly when shutter button is half-pressed". That's a new one on me - not any camera I've used.

Last Modified By Steppenwolf at 3 Jul 2013 - 1:42 PM
MichaelMelb_AU


Quote: ...

Who's being pedantic now....

Please explain how this is related to the thread subject.

Quote: ... Sony cameras allow you the option of configuring the EVF to show the picture as it will look (called "effects on"). You can alternatively select "effects off" in which case the EVF will adjust itself to show the image regardless of camera settings like a DSLR. The advantage of "effects on" is that a) you can see what the picture will look like and b) it gives a bright picture even when light is very bad - if you set the exposure right. But you have the choice. Nikon CSCs don't allow the choice - you just get "effects on", which is fine by me. I think the M4/3 CSCs allow the choice like Sony.
...

That illustrates my point about WISYWIG being dependent on certain conditions. Thanks for doing that. Unfortunately, not every camera in the world is made by SONY - so some research applies before making wide assumptions.

Steppenwolf
4 Jul 2013 - 8:40 AM


Quote: ...
That illustrates my point about WISYWIG being dependent on certain conditions. Thanks for doing that. Unfortunately, not every camera in the world is made by SONY - so some research applies before making wide assumptions.

I notice you didn't say which cameras' EVFs work in the way you describe, i.e.: "show true picture only briefly when shutter button is half-pressed". Maybe you'd like to list which EVF cameras you've used in your "research". Or maybe you're just making it up as you go along.

In my experience all EVFs show the picture as it will be captured using the exposure/ISO settings selected. But some of the more upmarket cameras allow the user the choice of setting the EVF to show the scene as it is - i.e. if it's bright the image will be bright and if it's dark the image will be dark, regardless of camera settings.

keith selmes
4 Jul 2013 - 9:33 AM


Quote: In my experience all EVFs show the picture as it will be captured using the exposure/ISO settings selected.

Mine doesn't. Panasonic GH1. I think it's supposed to, but about half the time it doesn't work. It also doesn't show changes in exposure settings. Well, sometimes it does momentarily, before adjusting itself back to the image it started with.
It also has well documented problems with camera movement, e.g. when with panning or changing composition.
Out of the box, in good light, the EVF is impressive, and often is fine in use, but in dull or very bright conditions it is extremely frustrating. I believe the newer models are improved, but have no idea how much.
Part of the problem with assessing EVF, is that another person may usually use them in conditions which are optimal for the technology, and never be aware of the problems.

I would really like an EVF that was adjustable or switchable. Since I'm not planning on spending the money in the near future, I'm not researching new models yet, but my experience with this one might be useful to those who do need to do some research.

Michael obviously is quite right, "about WISYWIG being dependent on certain conditions"

MichaelMelb_AU

About research. I checked with OM-D manual - it has no option to any "effects", and I suppose it also works as described above - which is pretty standard for all EVFs (except Sony maybe, I don't care to know).

Quote: ...
...maybe you're just making it up as you go along.


Indeed Tongue

PaulGingell
4 Jul 2013 - 1:24 PM

I've opted for a Canon EOS 550D, which I managed to pick up quite cheaply. As for live previews, the main thing I'd be interested in is depth of field. Film cameras often had them (stopping down the aperture) but they were pretty hit and miss, so I rely on the lens markings and experience. The 550D manual says the DoF preview can be 'clearly seen' in Live View mode, but I'll believe that when I see it.

Steppenwolf
4 Jul 2013 - 1:43 PM


Quote: About research. I checked with OM-D manual - it has no option to any "effects", and I suppose it also works as described above - which is pretty standard for all EVFs (except Sony maybe, I don't care to know).

So basically you can't come up with a single camera that works in the way that you have described, i.e.: "show true picture only briefly when shutter button is half-pressed". You've just looked at the OM-D manual (presumably on-line) and you "suppose" it works in this way. Another google expert.

I think you'll find it actually works in the way that I described - i.e. the effects of camera settings are shown in the EVF by default. Whether you can change that or not I don't know, but you won't find out by scanning the manual for the word "effects" because Olympus almost certainly don't call it that. I'd be surprised if it didn't have different EVF options because one problem with the WYSIWYG viewfinder is that it can appear very dark when you use the camera in bright sunlight - for the simple reason that it's showing the image correctly exposed but your eyes are used to bright light.


Quote: Mine doesn't. Panasonic GH1. I think it's supposed to, but about half the time it doesn't work.

Sounds like it's faulty as you say. It also doesn't sound like it works in the way Mr Melb claims is the norm for all except Sony cameras (about which he "doesn't care to know"). It would be interesting to find out if there's any EVF that works in the way he described - it's entirely possible, but I've never used one.

keith selmes
4 Jul 2013 - 5:13 PM


Quote: Sounds like it's faulty as you say.

I didn't say it's faulty. I have no reason to think that.

Steppenwolf
4 Jul 2013 - 5:42 PM


Quote: Sounds like it's faulty as you say.I didn't say it's faulty. I have no reason to think that.

You said "I think it's supposed to, but about half the time it doesn't work", which seems to imply it's faulty - to me anyway.

There are two ways EVFs can be set up to operate: 1) they can reflect the camera's settings in the view finder, or 2) they can display an image regardless of exposure settings at a brightness that's configurable on the menu. Some do one and some do the other, and some can be configured to do either - I've never yet seen a camera that reverts to the camera settings when the shutter is half-depressed as Mr melb talks about. I'd be interested to know which cameras work like this, but he doesn't seem to know.

I'd guess your GH1 is option 2 and can't be configured any other way. The OM-D is option 1 - or at least the one I tried was, and Olympus make great play of this on their advertising. I suspect that the OM-D also allows option 2 but I've never messed about with the menu on this camera. These options are usually buried deep in the menu and you'd be surprised how many people are unaware of them - including the reviewers who complain about the Sony EVF being dark on a sunny day.

Maybe one of the many EM5 users on this site can give chapter and verse on this.

Last Modified By Steppenwolf at 4 Jul 2013 - 5:47 PM
Paul Morgan
Paul Morgan e2 Member 1315396 forum postsPaul Morgan vcard England6 Constructive Critique Points
4 Jul 2013 - 9:09 PM


Quote: Michael obviously is quite right, "about WISYWIG being dependent on certain conditions"

In your standard every day conditions it works fine, out in bright sunlight its not quite so easy to see the changes.

It is not 100% accurate either, I just use it as a guide line.

Steppenwolf
5 Jul 2013 - 8:23 AM


Quote:

In your standard every day conditions it works fine, out in bright sunlight its not quite so easy to see the changes.

It is not 100% accurate either, I just use it as a guide line.

So basically the EVF is set up to reflect the exposure that you select - e.g. if you're in Manual mode the EVF gets darker when the aperture is made smaller. If so that's the standard way that EVFs work - in my experience anyway. Can you confirm that the EVF brightness does NOT change when you half press the shutter?

LenShepherd
LenShepherd e2 Member 62481 forum postsLenShepherd vcard United Kingdom
5 Jul 2013 - 9:07 AM

Changing format from an Hasselblad film camera to a modern compact digital format is a huge change of both photographic handling and equipment.
Where approximately do you live?
With this information some-one may be able to advise a nearby store where you can handle a reasonable range of formats and brands to give you some idea what, from probably over 100 options out there, is likely to be good for you.
Have you expertise in post processing?
This is the area where digital has a huge creative advantage over Hasselblad film, unless you already scan your film.
You are aiming at a change equivalent to moving from driving a vintage car to buying a modern car having never driven one. With this in mind I think it unwise to give specific advice until you have first looked at a few cameras, and commented on your post process ability.
Taking your original suggestions of a D90 and 12 MP with the skill you are likely to apply to shooting with your current camera you should be able to achieve decent A3 prints to 800 ISO. Whether this is the best option for you perhaps depends most on what you decide you want from a digital camera after handling a reasonable selection of options.

MichaelMelb_AU
5 Jul 2013 - 11:03 AM

OVF vs EVF debate is not new. Yet it is important to understand the differences while choosing a camera. There's no universal consensus at the moment on which viewfinder is actually better - it's rather matter of personal choice. Some very good information that may enhance the understanding of the issue may be found here. Sure, the author knew what he was talking about from practical experience and did not invent theories and "types" on the go as some other people do.

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