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Murdered Police Officers

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Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139449 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
24 Sep 2012 - 7:15 PM


Quote: Total rubbish!


Well answer the question then: it's not hard!

Would you regard the hanging of one of your loved ones, by mistake, to be an acceptable hazard of capital punishment? And would you still support capital punishment after that had happened. Honest answers please. Smile


Quote: If the wrong person had been hanged in his place, he wouldn't need to wait ten years.

He could do it whenever he felt like it.

Good point!

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mikehit
mikehit  56474 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
24 Sep 2012 - 7:37 PM


Quote: I don't think Frank wants to answer the question, somehow. I suspect he is not alone amongst the pro-capital punishment brigade. That is to say:

......................it's OK if other people's loved ones get hanged for a murder they did not commit: it's an "acceptable" hazard of the system. But when it comes to your own nearest and dearest, oh goodness me, it's a very different story!

Total rubbish!

And what may I ask is wrong with being one of the "Either capital punishment or life means life brigade?" That;position is held by the majority of this country's electorate, check your opinion polls before you rubbish that suggestion. Now answer this question before you start at me my boy.

Would you too prefer a murderer to be released after say 10 years and then kill a relative of yours or would you prefer he be hanged rather than let that happen?

As I said, none of you are prepared to either answer that question or engage in serious debate.[epz edit] Really you know why you don't want to answer the question - it is unanswerable and unthinkable - but possible.

Oh, I'm quite happy to enter into a debate.
You said quite clearly that it is acceptable (in your opinion) for one person to be hanged (and you were quite specific about that, no 'get out' clause about life imprisonment...you said hanged) as an acceptable payoff for the guilty to be not released again. And it is on that one statemebt that I placed my question.
So please, with no reference to life imrisonment, or being released or any other issue would you be willing to accept firend or family who you know to be innocent to be executed? If you think it is 'unanswerable' please expalin why.


As for your question I believe life should mean life because in that way they are not free to kill again. But I do not believe the death penalty is the answer. There - happy now?
Can I have my answer please.

collywobles
24 Sep 2012 - 9:20 PM

I have an experience of a friend being murdered 6 years ago and who was stabbed 14 times. I still do not want capital punishment brought back - its a barbaric answer and should be left in the history books.

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
25 Sep 2012 - 8:29 AM


Quote: Can I have my answer please.

I have answered you many times, enough is enough. I also said I resepect your right to express unpopular views. You must respe tmine to go along with mainstream thoughts.

mikehit
mikehit  56474 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
25 Sep 2012 - 9:08 AM

Can you point me to the answer you gave? Nope.
Is my view unpopular? No, but then I feel 'unpopular' means you don't agree with it.
Is your 'mainstream'? A meta survery showing 53% in favour is hardly a ringing endorsement.

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
25 Sep 2012 - 9:42 AM

I said it was an unanswerable question, which I also said was the reason why you singularly failed to answer mine.

53% is surely better than 47%

keith selmes
25 Sep 2012 - 9:59 AM


Quote: I resepect your right to express unpopular views. You must respe tmine to go along with mainstream thoughts.

Polls are about 50-50, or very slightly in favour of capital punishments. There are also suggestions they are skewed as being conducted just after particularly horrific murder cases.
So his views are hardly unpopular if the polls suggest about 30 million people agree with him, and yours aren't exactly mainstream.

In any case going with the population sector who base their views on ignorance and gut reaction isn't something to be pleased about.

thewilliam
25 Sep 2012 - 10:05 AM

Would a lynch-mob count as democracy?

thewilliam
25 Sep 2012 - 10:14 AM

Our judicial system has always tried to build in checks and balances.

The jury is as easily swayed by a skilled barrister as they are by well-made television advert so the jury sytem is probably unreliable in many cases.

Sharia law, in theory at least, uses a panel of expert lawyers who can be a bit more objective. The downside is that the public has zero control or influence. The judges can be pressured by politicians or religious authorities.

A jury is able to acquit a defendent who's been charged under a law that the public consider unjust such as when the British government imposed the death penalty for poaching a couple of centuries ago.

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139449 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
25 Sep 2012 - 10:24 AM

A few points:

- Capital punishment was last used in UK 48 years ago, before formal abolition a few years later. It would be an extremely serious decision to bring it back, requiring the UK to leave the EU and some other international bodies.

- The onus is, therefore, very much upon those who wish to bring it back to answer every question imaginable. Not to "answer" questions with other questions.

- The questions asked are not unanswerable. They are precisely the sort of questions one should ask oneself when it is, quite literally, a matter of life and death. The problem is, usually, honest answers will often make the proponent's position untenable, which is why they prefer to wriggle out of it by saying the questions are 'unanswerable'.

- Kneejerk legislation, in response to a specific event, is rarely good. The Dangerous Dogs Act is often cited as an example.

strawman
strawman  1022006 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
25 Sep 2012 - 10:45 AM

There are so many ways to say the death penalty is not effective, perhaps the best is to just say that for the people you wish to stop it is not a deterrent. Take a country like the USA where the police are armed and taking action will lead to a fair chance of being shot at, it does not deter them. And for crimes of passion its not going to make a jot.

Some evidence . This indicates the presence of the death penalty increases the murder rate, but I think it is more likely to show that it has no impact. So if it has no impact why be as barbaric as the murderer.

I can agree that policies for detention and life meaning life could be improved to prevent know offenders from getting out into society but we got rid of the death penalty for good reasons just like we do not allow lynch mobs either.

the argument is closed on this one once you go beyond the lynch mob mentality I believe.

mikehit
mikehit  56474 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
25 Sep 2012 - 11:38 AM


Quote: I said it was an unanswerable question...

Sorry - am I taking you out of your comfort zone?

Last Modified By mikehit at 25 Sep 2012 - 11:39 AM
mikehit
mikehit  56474 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
25 Sep 2012 - 11:39 AM

Interesting link, Strawman.
The problem in discussions like this is that we sit in front of our screens predicting how we would react in a situation that is way out of our sphere of understanding: in many cases we are so sure that the death penalty must be a deterrent and we cannot understand why it would not be. I am constantly amazed at how many bereaved relatives are willing to forgive the murderer and how many of those even go so far as to feel pity. I even recall one interview where the relative said they used to believe in the death penalty until their daughter was murdered and afterwards realised it would solve nothing, and no they are anti-capital punishment. Yes, there are also many who would happily pull the trapdoor under the noose but the fact the counter opinion is there gives me great pause for thought.

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102289 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
25 Sep 2012 - 3:13 PM


Quote: Interesting link, Strawman.
The problem in discussions like this is that we sit in front of our screens predicting how we would react in a situation that is way out of our sphere of understanding: in many cases we are so sure that the death penalty must be a deterrent and we cannot understand why it would not be. I am constantly amazed at how many bereaved relatives are willing to forgive the murderer and how many of those even go so far as to feel pity. I even recall one interview where the relative said they used to believe in the death penalty until their daughter was murdered and afterwards realised it would solve nothing, and no they are anti-capital punishment. Yes, there are also many who would happily pull the trapdoor under the noose but the fact the counter opinion is there gives me great pause for thought.

Yes, Mike - I very much share your view. I'm against capital punishment but maybe we simply need to ensure that a life sentence means just that - a life sentence in the case of the most dangerous killers.

jondf
jondf  82475 forum posts
19 Oct 2012 - 3:05 PM


Quote: Take a country like the USA where the police are armed and taking action will lead to a fair chance of being shot at, it does not deter them

Well, the argument goes on with intellectuals on either side of the fence producing evidence 'proving' they're right.

http://deathpenalty.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000983

But my opening post on this topic referred specifically to those who murder police officers. I would also add to that list child murderers so long as, in both cases, guilt is proven beyond doubt.

The argument that you would not want a relative to be executed who you knew to be innocent holds little water I think. Innocence and guilt must be proven in court. For someone who knows the defendant to say "S/he didn't do it! I know they could never do such a thing!" is clearly inadmissible from a legal standpoint.

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