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National Service

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Sooty_1
Sooty_1 Critique Team 41216 forum posts United Kingdom200 Constructive Critique Points
24 Jan 2012 - 11:43 PM


Quote: Anyone remember the Lockheed Starfighter? A very dependable plane when maintained by the professionals in the USAF but the Luftwaffe allowed conscripts to work on the plane and they lost so many that it became known as "the widow-maker".

Any plane that has an ejection seat that ejects downwards has to have been designed by a cretin. Plus it has a single engine (in the days when engine failure was commonplace) and wings smaller than my computer monitor. And the germans flew it much closer to the ground than the Americans ever did, in worse conditions and weather. Recipe for disaster. The USAF of the day was not known for it's safety or it's technical ability, it just had more men and material to replace damaged ones.

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24 Jan 2012 - 11:43 PM

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peterjones
peterjones  123989 forum posts United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 6:22 AM

Apart from the cost involved I doubt that the service chiefs like any other employer want people as servicemen and women who would rather not be there under any circumstances; in recent history the UK has preferred a professional army, navy and air force; in WWI conscription didn't come in until 1917 probably helped by the fact that many who signed up had a much better life within the military than outside it the trenches notwithstanding; conscription I believe ended in 1919.

I think that WWII conscription hung about until 1960 with the very last conscripts leaving in 1963.

I wouldn't want any child of mine forced to serve in a politician's vanity war however if our shores are under direct threat or attack then we all take our chances.

lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1014170 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 7:59 AM

National Service of the traditional type seems to me to be a massive waste of people & resources. We don't need a huge military so why put all that effort into creating one.

If you are going to have a scheme, something along the lines of compulsory community service, would seem to be a much better use of resources and people IMHO.

digicammad
digicammad  1121988 forum posts United Kingdom37 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 8:12 AM

When most people talk about bringing back National Service it is with regard to instilling some discipline and respect into those who don't appear to have any.

So is there something which could be set up which didn't require all the hardware and costs? Perhaps some boot camp form of finishing school, being put through hard physical and mental challenges and learning to work as a team.

Alternatively we could just give teachers and bobbies back their authority and discretion to use it?

Big Bri
Big Bri  1315605 forum posts United Kingdom
25 Jan 2012 - 8:20 AM


Quote: When most people talk about bringing back National Service it is with regard to instilling some discipline and respect into those who don't appear to have any.

So is there something which could be set up which didn't require all the hardware and costs? Perhaps some boot camp form of finishing school, being put through hard physical and mental challenges and learning to work as a team.

Alternatively we could just give teachers and bobbies back their authority and discretion to use it?

Absolutely. "Human rights" have been twisted so far that it is impossible to instil discipline any more. The rights of the one outweigh the rights of the many.

answersonapostcard
answersonapostcard Site Moderator 1012609 forum postsanswersonapostcard vcard United Kingdom15 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 8:35 AM

.. +1

lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1014170 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 8:35 AM


Quote: So is there something which could be set up which didn't require all the hardware and costs? Perhaps some boot camp form of finishing school, being put through hard physical and mental challenges and learning to work as a team.

Well you need buildings, trainers and equipment - I should think the costs would be similar to keeping them on at school for the same period.

digicammad
digicammad  1121988 forum posts United Kingdom37 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 8:53 AM


Quote: Well you need buildings, trainers and equipment - I should think the costs would be similar to keeping them on at school for the same period.

Probably, but to make a difference you need to put them into a different environment. To draw a parallel with myself (slightly dodgy analogy), I finished my 5th year at school with zero qualifications. Had I gone back to resit them (I tried but they wouldn't let me in) I would no doubt have repeated my dismal failure. In the end I went to tech and loved the environment as much as I had hated school. I ended up with 5 O's and 2 A's. Not brilliant compared to some but for a lifetime under-achiever it was a miracle. I've not looked back since.

To give people a second chance and an incentive to change you sometimes need to put them into a new situation.

Last Modified By digicammad at 25 Jan 2012 - 8:54 AM
mikehit
mikehit  56689 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 9:20 AM

I used to think (like many, I believe) that bringing back National Service was a good idea to teach youngsters discipline. A few years ago I was speaking to my uncle who did do his Service and he explained that if they had a lout with bad discipline and who refused to obey orders, the army coundn't be bothered with them and found a way to discharge them. The result was that the ones who stayed in the national Service were the ones who buckled under - in other words the very people who would have behaved themselves in civvy street; while the ones who needed the discipline were dumped back into society unchanged.
So my views have been somewhat tempered since then.

peterjones
peterjones  123989 forum posts United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 9:34 AM

you may be interested to know that my son having passed all the very heavy preliminaries joined the Royal Marines at CTCRM Lympstone on the 5th September last and was medically discharged due to a chronic hip issue on his 6th week, (a subsequent MRI scan has revealed a cartilage problem curable with key hole surgery) I still don't know whether I am disappointed for him and all his efforts or relieved that he won't have to serve a politician's vanity war; probably both.

He has many friends within the military and he tells me that the personnel that the services are jettisoning are those that shouldn't be there or don't want to be there; they are not operating the usual corporate last in first out despite their merits policy.

Our armed services want people that want to be in not people who are press ganged into joining by the state.

tomcat
tomcat e2 Member 95932 forum poststomcat vcard United Kingdom15 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 10:41 AM

When NS was in it's heyday, ther was no hi-tec weapons as such. It was all muck and bullets and get on with it.
The modern armies of this world, use so much sophisticated equipment, which involves a great deal of expertise and training, that recruits plucked off the streets would be neither use nor ornament.

Thanks Paul for quantifying your earlier postSmile

Andy_Cundell
25 Jan 2012 - 12:39 PM

Having an invested interest in this topic (Wink, I can't belive what some people think and do you think we send troops out to war zones just because we can??????? (we are all entitled to our own opinions though Smile and I don't wish to change the topic to current and past events and if they were right or wrong).

I do agree that as a punishment for offenders, the Armed Forces would crumble and it's not a good idea. The high standards we are proud to boast in our World Leading Armed Forces, could be lost. The battle to teach people self discipline, discipline, control and even a trade would be lost on some people. The paperwork generated to dismiss unruly people after a lot of time and money has been invested in them would not be worth it. At the moment, with high unemployment rates, there is a 2 year waiting list to walk through the gates of HMS Raleigh. Basically, we can pick and choose the cream of the crop, the people that want to be here and the people that have joined for success and a career. If you dont make the grade............your out. Saying this, a few previous 'offenders' could be changed to see the 'light' and probably would make a life long career out of it, but I would bet more would just loaf until their time was done.

When I read about the actions of some youths and young adults of today and even viewing them in towns and on the streets, I do think, a good few years in the forces would shake you up. A size 12 up your rear end, on the parade ground, will do you the world of good. National Service sounds like a good idea then but, as before, some people would just try and worm out of it or sit on their heels for the time they are in. This would be money wasted and we all know, money is tight in todays climate.

So in one final paragraph, yes, National Service would change todays youth/ young adults and teach a lot of people core values like Commitment, Courage, Discipline, Respect for Others, Integrity and Loyalty, but in today current financial climate, we can't afford it!

Andy
24 years and counting!!!!!!!

Zatoichi
Zatoichi  5707 forum posts United Kingdom
25 Jan 2012 - 1:27 PM


Quote: So in one final paragraph, yes, National Service would change todays youth/ young adults and teach a lot of people core values like Commitment, Courage, Discipline, Respect for Others, Integrity and Loyalty, but in today current financial climate, we can't afford it

You don't need an army for that, just a society that's interested in investing in people.

strawman
strawman  1022010 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 1:29 PM


Quote: You don't need an army for that, just a society that's interested in investing in people.

and people that are interested in and recognise their responsibilities to society.

you need both in my eyes.

Last Modified By strawman at 25 Jan 2012 - 1:30 PM
Zatoichi
Zatoichi  5707 forum posts United Kingdom
25 Jan 2012 - 1:32 PM


Quote: and people that are interested in and recognise their responsibilities to society.you need both in my eyes.

Invest in people and see what happens. I don't see much benefit in knowing how to kill someone.

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