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National Service

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oldblokeh
oldblokeh  3770 forum posts United Kingdom
25 Jan 2012 - 1:35 PM


Quote: ... teach a lot of people core values like Commitment, Courage, Discipline, Respect for Others, Integrity and Loyalty, but in today current financial climate, we can't afford it!



Sadly, National Service would do nothing to help alter the attitude of some of the current generation of parents, whose responsibility it should be to instil the core values and who fail dismally in that respect.

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25 Jan 2012 - 1:35 PM

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peterjones
peterjones e2 Member 123856 forum postspeterjones vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 2:12 PM

from the above comment NS would be ideal for our current crop of politicians but I could almost guarantee that the service chiefs wouldn't want them.

Last Modified By peterjones at 25 Jan 2012 - 2:12 PM
adrian_w
adrian_w e2 Member 63280 forum postsadrian_w vcard Scotland4 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 3:45 PM


Quote: ... teach a lot of people core values like Commitment, Courage, Discipline, Respect for Others, Integrity and Loyalty, but in today current financial climate, we can't afford it!



Sadly, National Service would do nothing to help alter the attitude of some of the current generation of parents, whose responsibility it should be to instil the core values and who fail dismally in that respect.

You could argue that that is because they were probably the 1st generation not to do National Service themselves & so learn those core values.

oldblokeh
oldblokeh  3770 forum posts United Kingdom
25 Jan 2012 - 3:48 PM


Quote: ...
You could argue that that is because they were probably the 1st generation not to do National Service themselves & so learn those core values.

You could, but you would be wrong.

There was no conscription or national service between 1919 and 1939.

MeanGreeny
25 Jan 2012 - 4:02 PM

Now let's see...........

1 - You're going to send the dregs of society and teach them how to work in gangs and the lethal use of firearms............. and let them back on the streets a short time later resentful of the people who sent them there.

2 - You're going to burden a professional, motivated, volunteer Army with a bunch of reluctant teenagers when it is stretched to the limit by political masters who couldn't find their arses with both hands and a map.

It seems to me that the only people here advocating the return of National Service are those who have never been in the Armed Forces as a volunteer, just want shot of a social problem somewhere else [e.g. Afghanistan] rather than remedy the causes [i.e. them] and don't care about the devastating effect it would have on the already depleted morale of their Armed Forces and the knock on effect on the casualty rate.

:rollseyes:

Good thinking Batman

Last Modified By MeanGreeny at 25 Jan 2012 - 4:02 PM
collywobles
25 Jan 2012 - 4:19 PM

As a member of the armed services when it comes to battle - would you want to rely on one of these no goods to protect your back -- not sure I'd trust them?

MeanGreeny
25 Jan 2012 - 5:09 PM


Quote: As a member of the armed services when it comes to battle - would you want to rely on one of these no goods to protect your back -- not sure I'd trust them?

It's already enough that they're armed with weapons from the lowest bidder

Zatoichi
Zatoichi  5707 forum posts United Kingdom
25 Jan 2012 - 5:31 PM

Most of the armed forces are from working class backgrounds, lacking in education and therefore not much hope on the job front, with the forces offering a way out - You don't get too many Cambridge graduates on the front line - and now all of a sudden they are professional, upstanding and to revered?

The reality, which some of you seem devoid of, is that the forces are comprised of people from the very backgrounds you loathe. Traditionally, these are the people who comprise the canon fodder sent to war on behalf of those in our society who are a tad better off - the Eaton, Oxbridge, Bullingdon types with all of their patriotic flag waving pomp.


Quote: .......... and let them back on the streets a short time later resentful of the people who sent them there.

There are a huge number of military returning from our current warring who feel just the same, but naturally you won't here about that. Of course a huge percentage of our homeless people are made up from ex-service personnel, the same people who are 'scroungers, protesters etc'.

Heroes when it suits, scum when it doesn't. Never mind the Army, some of you should get into politics.

MeanGreeny
25 Jan 2012 - 5:38 PM


Quote: ...................some of you should get into politics.

That's just plain nasty

Smile

strawman
strawman  1022002 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 5:39 PM

Funny I read it and thought the same Smile

mikehit
mikehit  46171 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 5:49 PM


Quote: The reality, which some of you seem devoid of, is that the forces are comprised of people from the very backgrounds you loathe.

Speaking for myself, you missed the mark again


Quote: Most of the armed forces are from working class backgrounds, lacking in education and therefore not much hope on the job front,

I have no problem with those people. In fact it is likely that to some in our society I am one of those people. Tongue The people I loathe are the thugs, the violent and the criminal - and they are comprised of people from all social strata. And I believe that several (many?) those in favour of national service have the intention of putting that 'type of person' in the army for a shock of discipline.

Zatoichi
Zatoichi  5707 forum posts United Kingdom
25 Jan 2012 - 6:00 PM


Quote: Speaking for myself, you missed the mark again

You'll need to explain that.


Quote: The people I loathe are the thugs, the violent and the criminal - and they are comprised of people from all social strata. And I believe that several (many?) those in favour of national service have the intention of putting that 'type of person' in the army for a shock of discipline.

Take a thug, give him a gun and train him to kill, brilliant idea Wink

collywobles
25 Jan 2012 - 6:05 PM


Quote:
The reality, which some of you seem devoid of, is that the forces are comprised of people from the very backgrounds you loathe. Traditionally, these are the people who comprise the canon fodder sent to war on behalf of those in our society who are a tad better off - the Eaton, Oxbridge, Bullingdon types with all of their patriotic flag waving pomp.

............ and whats wrong with Bullingdon? (8o)

My Grandson goes to the same school that David Cameron attended. (8oP

Last Modified By collywobles at 25 Jan 2012 - 6:06 PM
mikehit
mikehit  46171 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 6:14 PM


Quote: Speaking for myself, you missed the mark again

You'll need to explain that.

The two sentences of yours I put together:

"Most of the armed forces are from working class backgrounds, lacking in education and therefore not much hope on the job front,....The reality, which some of you seem devoid of, is that the forces are comprised of people from the very backgrounds you loathe"
The background of working class is not one I loathe.



Quote: The people I loathe are the thugs, the violent and the criminal - and they are comprised of people from all social strata. And I believe that several (many?) those in favour of national service have the intention of putting that 'type of person' in the army for a shock of discipline.

Take a thug, give him a gun and train him to kill, brilliant idea Wink

I explained further the sort of people I loathe - I agree with your comment that giving them a gun is not a generally good idea.
However, there is a percentage of the front line personnel who are violent or criminal and they realise this themselves and volunteer for the army. Some do so for the chance to act out their violence in a legal arena (the battlefield) and others do it because they actually want the discipline to improve themselves.
And when I say 'percentages...some.. others' I have no idea what proportions they are in the Forces but when you accept they do exist (and always have done), then the criticism of 'not giving a thug a gun' gets a bit blurred.

thewilliam
25 Jan 2012 - 6:27 PM

In WW1, the British Army lost a huge number of subalterns and these certainly weren't working class. Just look at the Honour Board in any public school to learn just how many perished.

My grandfather was instructed to hold his sword or pistol high so that all could see that he was a commissioned officer and this gave the enemy snipers a clear target. Thankfully he was wounded and not killed or I wouldn't be writing this.

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