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Zatoichi
Zatoichi  5707 forum posts United Kingdom
25 Jan 2012 - 6:36 PM


Quote: and these certainly weren't working class.

The number of 'peasants' killed by war greatly outweighs the better off classes.



Quote: The background of working class is not one I loathe

That'll make you one of the exceptions Wink


Quote: However, there is a percentage of the front line personnel who are violent or criminal and they realise this themselves and volunteer for the army. Some do so for the chance to act out their violence in a legal arena (the battlefield) and others do it because they actually want the discipline to improve themselves.
And when I say 'percentages...some.. others' I have no idea what proportions they are in the Forces but when you accept they do exist (and always have done), then the criticism of 'not giving a thug a gun' gets a bit blurred.

I'd guess eg. the Army, are fairly efficient at psyching people up to be killing machines, I'd also guess if one is a psychopath then it becomes considerably easier, but I doubt they often have the capacity to rationalise their psychosis and manoeuvre themselves into a position where they can inact it legally.

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Big Bri
Big Bri  1215507 forum posts England
25 Jan 2012 - 7:43 PM


Quote: The number of 'peasants' killed by war greatly outweighs the better off classes.

The number of 'peasants' greatly outweighs the better off classes.


Quote: That'll make you one of the exceptions

I doubt that.

(off topic rant)
Of course, Labour are to blame for this. They believe that it is "unfair" that the privileged classes get degrees, and that everyone should be allowed one. Unfortunately, there are some people who, even with Labour's best efforts, cannot get to Uni, so they get disaffected. Instead, what Labour should be doing is respecting those working class people for the value of what they do, rather than perpetuating the class war.
Some people will never be accountants, they will stack shelves for Tesco. This is a good thing. We need food on shelves. Instead of saying "that person deserves a chance to better himself" we should be saying "that person does a good job and is a valuable member of society".
(/off topic rant)

I don't loathe the working class - I have 400 years worth of family tree to prove my working class credentials Wink

StrayCat
StrayCat  1014207 forum posts Canada2 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 8:01 PM

Somebody has to dig the ditches. What's missing is respect.

Andy_Cundell
25 Jan 2012 - 8:45 PM


Quote: Most of the armed forces are from working class backgrounds, lacking in education and therefore not much hope on the job front,

You pompous Git! (and that's polite because of the filters on here!)

You Really don't have a clue! I fix millions of pounds worth of state of the art electronic equipment on hunter killer submarines and I'm from a working class background. I'm sure they would let me loose on all that expensive and sensitive equipment if I was lacking in education and for your information, you must have never crossed paths with Naval Officers, half of them come from Eaton and Oxbridge!

I will be slapping the back of your legs if you continue to talk like this! Tongue

mikehit
mikehit e2 Member 45766 forum postsmikehit vcard United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 8:53 PM


Quote: but I doubt they often have the capacity to rationalise their psychosis and manoeuvre themselves into a position where they can inact it legally.

That sort of person would be attracted because they see soldiering as an opportunity to commit violence. No rationalisation is required. You don't need to be a psychopath to want to be a frontline soldier - some people are just attracted to the opportunity of violence (just like others may join football hooligan gangs).

StrayCat
StrayCat  1014207 forum posts Canada2 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 10:25 PM

I doubt very much if anybody joins the military to commit violence. Some join because it's a family tradition, others to see a bit of the world, some to get one of the best educations available today, and some join because they haven't any idea what they would like to do in life. I wager you won't find one that wants to commit violence; in fact if that was a persons reason, they wouldn't make the grade.

Sooty_1
Sooty_1 Critique Team 31125 forum posts United Kingdom192 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 10:29 PM

Andy C: With you mate. 24 years? You smalley!

The vast majority of people in the armed forces are not on patrol 24/7, killing insurgents (or anyone else that crosses their sights). Most would be considered "tradesmen" (and women) and have learnt to do a job, be it fixing tanks, radios, Typhoon aircraft, nuclear subs, cooking, driving various vehicles, nursing, security etc etc.
Class has nothing to do with it, and many people I know have used the opportunities in the forces to improve their education (including to undergraduate degree and beyond). Also, 40% of the redundances are compulsory: the forces are not just getting rid of people that don't want to be there (or don't deserve to be). Many valuable posts are being lost and the forces are poorer for their leaving in most cases.
Learning to use a weapon means learning respect and correct usage, and rules of engagement instil discipline (unless you want to be up on a murder charge). Infantry are not gun-toting maniacs, but a disciplined force, versed in complex techniques and weapons, facing a cunning and determined enemy who will not fight on even terms, nor even wear a uniform. They use terror and often civilian women and children to shield themselves despite the fact we are there to help rebuild their country. I challenge any civilian who has never been there to come up with a better way of doing what they do. Regardless of whether we should or shouldn't be there, or who started it, respect the troops doing the job, as they are the ones risking everything on a daily basis only to come home to find their job has been taken away from them, in many cases.

Probably 99% of people I know in the forces are doing it because they want to do it and they enjoy doing what they do. The problem with morale is as much to do with not feeling appreciated and being away a large proportion of the time. Replacing uniformed troops with civilians is undermining our ability to operate, as none of them will ever go to Afghan, thus everyone left has to do more, with fewer resources, against an ever-improving opposition.
They do not join up for the violence, but for a career which can be rewarding. You don't say firefighters join up because they love fire, nor that doctors do it for the love of seeing injuries. They do it because they want to try to make a difference. I don't like broken bits of engineering, but I like fixing them - I get a feeling of satisfaction from it when it works well, and the more difficult it is, the more the satisfaction.

The working classes are not loathed because of who they are. The small minority spoil everything for everyone else, and this seems to be true in so many ways. Not every working class person is a criminal. The other classes have their share - their crimes tend to be different, but they are there (politicians and allowance fraud springs to mind...).

Rant over (for now....)

Paul Morgan
Paul Morgan e2 Member 1214393 forum postsPaul Morgan vcard England6 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jan 2012 - 11:45 PM


Quote: The reality, which some of you seem devoid of, is that the forces are comprised of people from the very backgrounds you loathe

I`m very proud of my working class background, my great grandfather grew up in a workhouse, then had a choice, the pits or the army, to better himself, he chose the army like so many others.

He joined in 1912 and retired shortly after the end of ww2 and he got to see the world as well as two world wars, although by the end of WW2 he was a high ranking officer sat behind a desk he never forgot were he had come from.

1-gdadgmawdadlaurief.jpg

Zatoichi
Zatoichi  5707 forum posts United Kingdom
26 Jan 2012 - 12:22 AM


Quote: The number of 'peasants' killed by war greatly outweighs the better off classes.

The number of 'peasants' greatly outweighs the better off classes.

All the more reason to slaughter them, who'd be left to keep the fight up?


Quote: You pompous Git! (and that's polite because of the filters on here!)

You Really don't have a clue! I fix millions of pounds worth of state of the art electronic equipment on hunter killer submarines and I'm from a working class background. I'm sure they would let me loose on all that expensive and sensitive equipment if I was lacking in education and for your information, you must have never crossed paths with Naval Officers, half of them come from Eaton and Oxbridge!

I will be slapping the back of your legs if you continue to talk like this! Tongue

Bravo for you. To hunt and kill who? You may have learned a trade in the art of war which doesn't really serve the rest of humanity while tipping your hat to those who are so obviously superior to yourself and you like it? Splendid argument, why aren't you an officer?


Quote: Of course, Labour are to blame for this. They believe that it is "unfair" that the privileged classes get degrees, and that everyone should be allowed one. Unfortunately, there are some people who, even with Labour's best efforts, cannot get to Uni, so they get disaffected. Instead, what Labour should be doing is respecting those working class people for the value of what they do, rather than perpetuating the class war.
Some people will never be accountants, they will stack shelves for Tesco. This is a good thing. We need food on shelves. Instead of saying "that person deserves a chance to better himself" we should be saying "that person does a good job and is a valuable member of society".

What? Of course you should only go to Uni if you can afford it, god forbid the working class should ever have opportunity to think for themselves or we have a nation where everyone has a fair chance. Most of us will never be quantum physicists so you're suggesting we should stop looking at the night sky with awe and wonder but accept the mundane 'cause we aren't good enough for anything else?


Quote: Most would be considered "tradesmen" (and women) and have learnt to do a job

After you've learned how to kill someone with a gun.


Quote: and rules of engagement instil discipline )

Really?


Quote: despite the fact we are there to help rebuild their country

So that's why we are there having young men and women slaughtered?


Quote: They do it because they want to try to make a difference.

But there isn't a population asking them to go home and leave them alone with their life and their culture.

Imagine the reverse. Where would you stand?

Zatoichi
Zatoichi  5707 forum posts United Kingdom
26 Jan 2012 - 12:48 AM

Ps. For the record, my Great Grand-father was a decorated in WW1 for bravery beyond the call of duty. My brother fought in the first Gulf War, got filled full of chemicals that went unrecorded by the British Army meaning US doctors wouldn't touch him because they had no idea what he'd had. Left the Army a few years later and lost his mind because of the horrors he had seen, the Government and Army didn't want to listen, treat or consider any aspect of him, so thank f*ck he had a good family around him.

Take your National Service and place it where the sun never shines because at the end of the day the powers that be don't give a toss about you.

StrayCat
StrayCat  1014207 forum posts Canada2 Constructive Critique Points
26 Jan 2012 - 6:10 AM

We're at their mercy no matter what field we enter.Tongue

I just read your scathing comments to the member above; what a stupid thing to say, to actually take your frustrations out on a person in the ranks of the military because of what happened to your brother. What is so great about being an officer, or going to university to learn how to do paperwork, while the intelligent people do the work. If I missed something in your comments above, take it out of my pay.

Last Modified By StrayCat at 26 Jan 2012 - 6:16 AM
Big Bri
Big Bri  1215507 forum posts England
26 Jan 2012 - 7:47 AM


Quote: What? Of course you should only go to Uni if you can afford it, god forbid the working class should ever have opportunity to think for themselves or we have a nation where everyone has a fair chance. Most of us will never be quantum physicists so you're suggesting we should stop looking at the night sky with awe and wonder but accept the mundane 'cause we aren't good enough for anything else?

Did you really completely misunderstand what I said, or were you just being deliberately argumentative again ?
Tongue

mikehit
mikehit e2 Member 45766 forum postsmikehit vcard United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
26 Jan 2012 - 9:00 AM

Zat - I am not sure if you are over-interpreting some of the comments people have made, or if you are venturing into wind-up territory. But I think your last post does put a lot of your comments into perspective.

Yes, the Government does crap on people in the armed forces, which is why there has been discussion recently about the 'covenant' with the armed forces. And I do sympathise a lot with the situation you describe.

Last Modified By mikehit at 26 Jan 2012 - 9:02 AM
Andy_Cundell
26 Jan 2012 - 11:05 AM


Quote: Andy C: With you mate. 24 years? You smalley!

Hehehe, I think the term your looking for is "Sprog!" Wink

polis_928tadw59

Just joined this after skipping through the comments. National Service/Conscription ? What about their Human Rights? "You can't drag me off to barracks to be a soldier, sailor, or whatever. I have a right to family life. I want to stop at home with Mummy and Daddy/my unmarried girlfriend and all our lovely children." I would think your lawyers and their ilk would be rubbing their hands with glee.

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