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Norway - you are in our thoughts and prayers...

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gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102289 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jul 2011 - 6:18 PM


Quote: Even in peaceable and ultra-democratic Norway, there have been calls for introduction of the death penalty. Hardly surprising when the maximum the culprit could get is 21 years....... and he'd probably be out again in much less than that, with remission.

Yes, I do sometimes wonder if there should perhaps be exceptions made to the anti-capital punishment stance. Anyway, I think this killer should be literally incarcerated for the rest of his days because apart from the punishment factor, I don't think it is remotely possible to rehabilitate such an individual. As a "good" Christian, he should have one of the ten commandments, "thy shalt not kill" piped through to a loudspeaker in his cell at regular ten second intervals...
I also noticed, that media like the Sun, with sickening predictability, initially announced that the massacre in Norway was an Al queda act of terror. Only the sort of knuckleheads that print and or read the Sun could believe that. I felt instinctively, at the time that this was a right-wing act, though it didn't take much working out as soon as we you saw the facts about the mass slaughter of Norway's young labour party supporters and the Nazi "Aryan race" thing about the killer.

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25 Jul 2011 - 6:18 PM

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StrayCat
StrayCat e2 Member 1014813 forum postsStrayCat vcard Canada2 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jul 2011 - 6:19 PM

Could he not get 21 years per murder?

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102289 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jul 2011 - 6:20 PM

Oh, I apologise to any of you who might read the Sun occasionally, just as I read the Daily Mail, for a laugh...SmileSad

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139449 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jul 2011 - 6:46 PM


Quote: Anyway, I think this killer should be literally incarcerated for the rest of his days

Well that's not going to happen, unless Norway changes its laws.


Quote: Could he not get 21 years per murder?

So far as I am aware, no. It's 21 years max, even for a mass killing. And according to what I have seen on the web, he could actually be out in as little as 10 years.

It's not America, where serial killers and the like can be sentenced to 400 years or whatever!

thewilliam
25 Jul 2011 - 7:16 PM

In the English and American courts, the judge can order the sentences for several crimes to be served concurrently or consecutively.

With an American sentence of 400 years, the prisoner could be paroled after serving 40 years - not as silly as it sounds. For a youngster to truly serve life, the sentence would need to be 999 years.

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110269 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jul 2011 - 7:23 PM


Quote: So far as I am aware, no. It's 21 years max, even for a mass killing. And according to what I have seen on the web, he could actually be out in as little as 10 years

they interviewed a Norwegian Lawyer about this on TV today and he said that under their laws, even though the maximum sentce is 21 years the courts can hold someone indefinitely beyond this if they were still considered to be a risk to the public. He said that because of this he thought it impossible that the killer would ever be released

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139449 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jul 2011 - 7:33 PM

But he will be eligible for parole after 10 years, and a bit of sweet-talking and fake remorsefulness may convince the authorities he is no longer a danger. He is crafty enough, one would have thought.

peterkin
peterkin  10619 forum posts England
25 Jul 2011 - 7:42 PM


Quote: I also noticed, that media like the Sun, with sickening predictability, initially announced that the massacre in Norway was an Al queda act of terror. Only the sort of knuckleheads that print and or read the Sun could believe that.

That's probably because an Islamic terrorist group originally claimed responsibility for the attack and also a Muslim cleric, head of an Islamist fundamentalist terror group, threatened murderous reprisals against Norway after he was charged with terror offences and was to be deported. These facts were reported by the reputable New York Times and were thus picked up and reported by many other newspapers World-wide and in the UK including The Scotsman. Are their proprieters, employees and readers also knuckleheads? You felt instinctively it was a right-wing attack? Perhaps you could get a job with the anti-terrorist squad.

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102289 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jul 2011 - 9:53 PM


Quote: That's probably because an Islamic terrorist group originally claimed responsibility for the attack and also a Muslim cleric, head of an Islamist fundamentalist terror group, threatened murderous reprisals against Norway after he was charged with terror offences and was to be deported. These facts were reported by the reputable New York Times and were thus picked up and reported by many other newspapers World-wide and in the UK including The Scotsman. Are their proprieters, employees and readers also knuckleheads? You felt instinctively it was a right-wing attack? Perhaps you could get a job with the anti-terrorist squad.



The anti-terrorist squad would probably classify me as a left-wing, anti-establishment terrorist! Wink Of course, they would not be too far wrong, except for the "terrorist" bit.

Who said an Islamic terrorist group originally claimed responsibility for the attack?
As far as I can see, there have been various reports put together by unknown sources and certain news media have jumped on this, including the BBC, in their determination to blame the Islamists. I don't see any actual admission or claim by the Islamist extremists.
My point is that not all newspapers jumped to conclusions like the Sun and other media like the Wall Street Journal and "reputable" papers like the New York Times. Anyway, I wonder, what is a reputable newspaper? Is there one? Has there ever been one? I doubt it...

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139449 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jul 2011 - 11:32 PM

As I indicated much earlier in this thread the knee-jerk reaction to any violent outrage is "Al-Qaeda". (The existence of which is arguable anyway). It is easy and sloppy journalism.

Hopefully we will think more carefully about attaching labels in future. Also - and more importantly - we may have at last, vicariously, woken up to the very much home-grown threats within our midst which do not bear an Islamic tag. We are so busy keeping our eye on threats from a single direction that we overlook those coming from other directions.

Bear in mind the major conflicts of the 20th century viz. WW1, WW2, and the Korean and Vietnam wars, had nothing to do with Islam or indeed religion.

spaceman
spaceman  105166 forum posts Wales3 Constructive Critique Points
25 Jul 2011 - 11:49 PM

Charlie Brooker sums up my feelings about the shocking "journalism" employed during the early hours of this terrible event.

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139449 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
26 Jul 2011 - 2:40 AM

On a slightly different note, I wonder whether Mr Breivik will actually manage to serve even the minimum 10 years, if he is sentenced to 21?

He will surely be a prime target in jail; killers of youngsters tend to be a tad unpopular with other inmates......................

saltireblue
saltireblue Site Moderator 43917 forum postssaltireblue vcard Norway25 Constructive Critique Points
26 Jul 2011 - 8:39 AM

Under Norwegian law you can either be sentenced to a prison term, the maximum being 21 years, or for more serious crimes, and/or where the court decides that there is real possibility of the criminal committing more crimes no matter how long he is sentenced to, then the alternative of 'forvaring' can be used. Forvaring (literally translated as custody) is a kind of 'at her majesty's pleasure' whereby the sentence can be extended beyond the initial period of 21 years if it is deemed that there is still a danger to the general public or danger of him committing other crimes. In theory - and in practise- he could end up never see the outside world again.
This is the most likely outcome in this case.

digicammad
digicammad  1121988 forum posts United Kingdom37 Constructive Critique Points
26 Jul 2011 - 9:23 AM


Quote: Charlie Brooker sums up my feelings about the shocking "journalism" employed during the early hours of this terrible event.

Brilliant article.

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110269 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
26 Jul 2011 - 9:26 AM

That's more or less what the Norwegian Lawyer said during the TV interview

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