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Occupy London protest.


JackAllTog e2
5 4.0k 58 United Kingdom
17 Oct 2011 12:53PM
500 people are said to be outside St Pauls Cathedral today.

Their self published aims are & were decided as below - what do you think?
At today’s assembly of over 500 people on the steps of St Paul’s, #occupylsx collectively agreed the initial statement below. Please note, like all forms of direct democracy, the statement will always be a work in progress.
1 The current system is unsustainable. It is undemocratic and unjust. We need alternatives; this is where we work towards them.
2 We are of all ethnicities, backgrounds, genders, generations, sexualities dis/abilities and faiths. We stand together with occupations all over the world.
3 We refuse to pay for the banks’ crisis.
4 We do not accept the cuts as either necessary or inevitable. We demand an end to global tax injustice and our democracy representing corporations instead of the people.
5 We want regulators to be genuinely independent of the industries they regulate.
6 We support the strike on the 30th November and the student action on the 9th November, and actions to defend our health services, welfare, education and employment, and to stop wars and arms dealing.
7 We want structural change towards authentic global equality. The world’s resources must go towards caring for people and the planet, not the military, corporate profits or the rich.
8 We stand in solidarity with the global oppressed and we call for an end to the actions of our government and others in causing this oppression.
9 This is what democracy looks like. Come and join us!


Is this any different to the westminster peace camp, will i make a difference.
Do you have a photo to upload of the protest?

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17 Oct 2011 1:53PM

Quote:Please note, like all forms of direct democracy, the statement will always be a work in progress.


This is not democracy of any kind; direct or otherwise. Those taking part in the protest (or whatever it's supposed to be) are not elected. They have no democratic mandate. They represent nobody but themselves.
17 Oct 2011 1:55PM
Peaceful protest has to be better than what we have seen already this year, those early protests over education cuts etc, and then those mindless riots, neither of which have worked.

The trouble with any peace movement is infiltrators, those who have only one aim, and its not peace, they just jump on the bandwagon cos they think its a good opportunity to be heard and seen, sadly, judging by youtube content today, it seems those people are already there with their megaphones inciting trouble and unease.

It is clear the banking system does not work, its not just reform thats needed, its a complete change of ethics, but sadly thats just a dream.

I have always advocated peaceful protest, and upsetting the establishment whenever possible, because contrary to what we have been led to believe, there is a bigger picture than the one you see portrayed in the media, not everything is black and white, far from it, and not everything is done for our benefit, again, far from it, you need to decide who benefits most from the current situations (and i dont just mean banks), and whether that is right or wrong.

1 The current system is unsustainable. It is undemocratic and unjust. We need alternatives; this is where we work towards them.
2 We are of all ethnicities, backgrounds, genders, generations, sexualities dis/abilities and faiths. We stand together with occupations all over the world.
3 We refuse to pay for the banks’ crisis.
4 We do not accept the cuts as either necessary or inevitable. We demand an end to global tax injustice and our democracy representing corporations instead of the people.
5 We want regulators to be genuinely independent of the industries they regulate.
6 We support the strike on the 30th November and the student action on the 9th November, and actions to defend our health services, welfare, education and employment, and to stop wars and arms dealing.
7 We want structural change towards authentic global equality. The world’s resources must go towards caring for people and the planet, not the military, corporate profits or the rich.
8 We stand in solidarity with the global oppressed and we call for an end to the actions of our government and others in causing this oppression.


No doubt the stuffed shirts will be spitting their earl grey out in disgust at yet another attempt to change things, but really, are those 8 points really so radical? Or are we just so goddam ignorant and lazy as to not to care anymore?There will be some who say these 8 points are just an idealist day dreamers fantasy, but the biggest fantasy is that everything is ok.

Its not.
mikehit e2
5 7.1k 11 United Kingdom
17 Oct 2011 2:51PM

Quote:but really, are those 8 points really so radical?

Not in the sense that the list is one totally in line with organisations like the Socialist Worker's Party.


1 What system are they referring to? Are there any genuine alternatives (apart from the usual Marxist offerings)?
2 fair enough
3 What does thet mean. No taxes? No bank bailouts? Let the banking system collapse?
4 Do they mean keep spending as it was 5 years ago? What is the alternative to reduce the deficit? Tax the bankers is an overused and meaningless phrase (I agree about the 'tax injustice')
5 Totally agree
6 student action guaranteed to descend into violence on the 9th November.
Defend our health services, welfare, education and employment - see (4)
Stop wars and arms dealing - meaningless idealism. And I thought these protests were about the economic situation?
7 What is "authentic global equality".
"The world’s resources must go towards caring for people and the planet, not the military, corporate profits or the rich" - as anti-capitalist statement as you can dream up.
8 Who are the 'global oppressed'?


Yes, the banking system needs reform and at the moment I get the impression that these protests are the average person venting their frustration at the powers that be - and if it stays at that it may well have an effect. But declarations such as the above are nothing more than a rehashed version of every far left manifesto for the last forty years.
If they stuck to the banking/economic crisis it would far more effective but spanning it into arms race and wars belies its developing aims and is, to me, a turn off.
mikesavage e2
12 260 2 England
17 Oct 2011 7:20PM
All this talk about spending cuts is a bit of an urban myth. Overall, total government spending will increase year-on-year for the 5 year lifetime of the current parliament, it just won't increase as much as it would have done under the previous Labour government. Sure, spending in some areas is being cut, but to allow for even greater spending in other areas. It's not government spending that's being cut, but the rate of increase of government spending.

Don't forget that we've pledged to spend £33 billion to combat climate change & develop new forms of energy, more than any other country in the world.
lobsterboy e2
11 14.3k 13 United Kingdom
17 Oct 2011 7:42PM

Quote:Sure, spending in some areas is being cut, but to allow for even greater spending in other areas.

The other areas being mainly debt interest on the money we borrowed to prop up the banks/economy.


Quote:Don't forget that we've pledged to spend £33 billion to combat climate change & develop new forms of energy, more than any other country in the world.

I couldn't find that figure anywhere when I looked but I assume it is over a few years ?
JackAllTog e2
5 4.0k 58 United Kingdom
17 Oct 2011 10:32PM
mikesavage e2
12 260 2 England
17 Oct 2011 11:49PM

Quote:I couldn't find that figure anywhere when I looked but I assume it is over a few years ?


It's a figure I read in the newspapers several months ago, and yes it is spread over a number of years - I think it may be in the current decade, i.e. up to 2020.
discreetphoton e2
10 3.5k 20 United Kingdom
18 Oct 2011 6:04AM
Call me cynical, but as a student I attended a march every year aiming to raise awareness of student grants. There were over fifteen thousand of us. That didn't make a blind bit of difference, so I'm not too hopeful for the 500.
gcarth e2
10 2.3k 1 United Kingdom
19 Oct 2011 9:36PM

Quote:Call me cynical, but as a student I attended a march every year aiming to raise awareness of student grants. There were over fifteen thousand of us. That didn't make a blind bit of difference, so I'm not too hopeful for the 500.
I respect your attempts to raise awareness of student grants and understand your cynicism at the apparent lack of progress.
However, I think these protests might gradually become increasingly effective as people generally become increasingly discontented or desperate as the economic and social situation worsens even more - as surely it will.
I don't pretend to be a clairvoyant but I can't help feeling that we are still only at the beginning of fairly catastrophic social upheaval, with much worse to come...
The reason why I say this is because I don't see any serious movement towards redressing the balance of our society which is so unhealthily skewed in favour of the rich and powerful.
Less people are interested in religion and I'm one of them but if a society becomes more secular or atheistic, then something has to be found to take replace the religion that used to be so central to our lives: I think a spiritual template of some sort has to be established to "fill the gap", as it were.
Of course, before people can become more spiritual, they need to be able to know first how they can pay their mortgage or their next bill.
I think there is less deference by most people nowadays toward politicians and the many so-called opinion leaders, which is of course very often justified and indeed a good thing, except on the other hand, this lack of deference and respect might lead to general anomie or even anarchy.
JackAllTog e2
5 4.0k 58 United Kingdom
24 Oct 2011 2:47PM
Finsbury Square in Moorgate is now filling up though the music and atmosphere is not quite the same.
-mg-6355-1.jpg


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JackAllTog e2
5 4.0k 58 United Kingdom
24 Oct 2011 2:52PM
The Tents are appearing:
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City workers can''t sit on the grass anymore :-(
-mg-6343-1.jpg



The message is being spread
-mg-6359.jpg



Who is listening ?
-mg-6346.jpg



Its well organinsed with first aid tents, a booking office for plots, a library and a childrens play area.
Tesco's & Pret is nearby to keep them well supplied.

Good luck for the message even if the method of more taxes for us in police bills is unfair if they never contribute to community as a whole.
User_Removed 10 3.3k 4 United Kingdom
24 Oct 2011 3:11PM
There's got to be a better way.
collywobles e2
10 3.4k 9 United Kingdom
24 Oct 2011 4:08PM
They are a bunch of anarchists who have nothing practical to do with their time whilst collecting benefits from the welfare system that we hard working tax payers contribute to - how on earth could they spend the time doing this IF they were fully occupied in full time employments!

What on earth do they expect to achieve with their protests -- ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! except disrupt the general public and spoil some young couples wedding!

I suggest a good watering down with a Water Canon will put a bit of common sense into their minds especially now that winter teperatures are approaching.

PS: Capitalism is paying their welfare benefits.... !


Quote:I think these protests might gradually become increasingly effective as people generally become increasingly discontented or desperate as the economic and social situation worsens even more -

Quote:


OK Garth, lets assume we all protest -- now then, tell me where the money is going to come from to put the situation right?



quote]in favour of the rich and powerful.


Unfortunately -- thats life! Get used to it!
mikehit e2
5 7.1k 11 United Kingdom
24 Oct 2011 4:20PM
I heard one of the St Paul's protesters being interviewed following the decision to close the cathedral. Asked when they would leave he muttered a stupidly vague answer like 'when it is all sorted out'. It then went on along the lines of
'So what do you want to see done'?
'We don't know. We aren't here to provide the answers'.

I have no problem with protests but when they threaten to 'occupy until it is sorted out' the sheet banality of their deadline totally undermines their intentions.

Unfortunately the people who will be hit most by the economic crisis are those in jobs whose wages are being eroded or are in danger of becoming unemployed and will do whatever it takes to not lose their job. And that very definitely means not spending time on protests.

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