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Photographers jobs at risk with sneaky ideas.

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KevSB
KevSB  101410 forum posts United Kingdom5 Constructive Critique Points
28 Jan 2012 - 8:20 AM

Im sorry ian but the reality is photographers are common place, Its not a skill only open to the minority anymore due to cost, The widespread use of digital has opened it up to the masses, top photographers can garrentee quality but that is not always what is wanted, these community papers exist on very tight budgets and wanting to make savings by asking members of the community to submit is great way to involve the public it serves and ensure it has meteriel new and relevent.

As I said, its a personal choice to take part, Recently I was asked to take photographs for a football team over the season(northern league)no pay but space would be made on the coach for away games, in my case I have no intrest in footbll or know anything about the subject so declined.

20 years ago I drooled in envy as print photographers showcased fantastic work done in top of the Range darkrooms which I could never hope to own and produce the same results, Slides was the only option with very few opportunity to correct a badly taken picture. In that time good photographers could shine but digital has opened up the exclusive darkroom to everyone and the ability to turn photographs into something special.

An example, A new guy came to my club 2 years ago, bought a D70, left after 6 months saying he could not compete against other members, he has now opened a shop advirtising doing weddings, portraits ect as a professional photographer, why should I respect his trade when ive been doing it for enjoyment for 25 years, It needs to be accepted that some of us do this for that reason alone and we have put just as much effort and time into it as anyone else. I see many buy cameras and within a few years claim to be professional with very limeted skills and I will not let them spoil what to me is my hobby, I do not want that enjoyment spoiled by an obsession to make money evertime i take out the camera
.

Last time I checked my flikr album stats, I had 240k vuewings in 18 months and allow downloads, Nothing anygood but I enjoy sharing with the peaple and that is not a crime as far as im aware
The music industry and others have had to change and so is photography, the modern photographer is someone who has graphic artist skills and gives something uneque.

On a personal level I do not pretend to be something im not, I decline all requests to do weddings ect on the basis I cannot garrentee the quality and do not have the skills that they deserve and would be much better going to a proven wedding photographer, I am doing one this year, first time ever for a friend ive done everything to convince that im not up to it and only after agrement that 3 others will do it alongside me that ive agreed reluctently.

Last Modified By KevSB at 28 Jan 2012 - 8:30 AM
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macroman
macroman  1115312 forum posts England
28 Jan 2012 - 10:56 AM


Quote: Good photography takes time and planning, lots of effort, investment and luck so why go to all that effort to put it somewhere where you don't get paid for it???

Such as EPZ???? GrinGrin

andy_AHG
andy_AHG  5106 forum posts United Kingdom6 Constructive Critique Points
28 Jan 2012 - 2:31 PM


Quote: No it's not. It is a perfectly sensible way to reduce the costs of producing a newspaper and has the huge additional benefit of encouraging many more people to take an interest in photography and perhaps having their efforts published within their local communities.

I'm afraid that I'll have to disagree with you there. I guess that on one level you are right that it reduces costs - in so much as they are getting free coverage of events that in the past would be covered by paid photographers. It wouldn't bother me so much if they were publishing shots taken by the public and in that sense, encouraging an interest in photography. But they are asking semi-pros to cover events for free, in pursuit of the 'exposure for your work' fairy.

Also, if the website was truely a not for profit, community resource, again I wouldn't judge it so harshly. But in this instance it is a front for the hugely commercial Chronicle Group publishing company. The staff of the website and newspaper are all paid employees, but like many commercial companies, the budget for photography has been cut to virtually zero.

I'm all for encouraging people to take an interest in photography and in their communities too. Something that goes way beyond photography. But I don't see how either of these ideals are served by getting a semi-pro to cover events such as the christmas light switch on and local awards ceremonies for nothing by a by-line. It is all about generating content for free. I bet that not many of the reporters, editors, proof readers, typesetters or printers would be willing to work on such a basis.

It is true of course that everyone has a choice in these matters and everyone has the option to say no. However, many photographers I feel get drawn in to these arrangements in the hope that free work will lead to exposure, which will in turn lead to paid work. Some may well have benefitted from such arrangements but for the majority, it just leads to more requests for free work.

ianrobinson
ianrobinson e2 Member 41108 forum postsianrobinson vcard United Kingdom8 Constructive Critique Points
28 Jan 2012 - 3:48 PM

Such as EPZ????


Yes agreed, but EPZ does not have right over your photos and takes the proverbial pee out of unsuspecting togs like the paper is, try reading the terms and conditions as i have for the edp and then read the terms for epz and you will see a distinct difference, the EPZ is a learning tool, the papers are crafty sneaky companies that are there for one reason and one reason only to get what they can for as little as they can, Indian workers get paid more so where is the logic in that.
If papers start this sort of antic what's to stop other companies doing other products following suit, you want to hope your in a safe job your self mister and for your sake i hope you are.
I am all for companies to do well, i own one i should know, but to sack there photographers and then slyly take on free images from jo public is nothing short of being deceitful and dishonest to all not just there staff.
They will be getting jo blogs to write stories for them for free soon.
Lets all work for nothing and see how far our economy goes then, people who support this are quite frankly stupid and do not understand the importance of earning money to support there own families, god help your family if your that dumb.

User_Removed
28 Jan 2012 - 7:18 PM

I like to think that I am a reasonable chap, willing to accept that everyone has a right to express their opinions.

But seriously, guys.

I am getting a little bit cheesed off by "professionals" and "semi-pros" (whatever they are), taking over this Forum to whinge about how the world owes them a living and moaning about losing their incomes because the world has changed and they no longer have an exclusive saleable skill.

It is getting to the point where I want to tell the whingers to bugg*r off and find an internet site of their own where they can sit around and moan about the state of the new world.

Please leave this site for genuine amateurs and freelancers, like the vast majority of us, who want to have upbeat and positive discussions that help us to share our knowledge for the mutual benefit of all.

End of sermon.


(Note to Moderators: Why not go through all the "About" profiles of members and delete anyone who claims to be professional or semi-professional?)

.

Last Modified By User_Removed at 28 Jan 2012 - 7:20 PM
answersonapostcard
answersonapostcard Site Moderator 1012609 forum postsanswersonapostcard vcard United Kingdom15 Constructive Critique Points
28 Jan 2012 - 7:24 PM


Quote: Please leave this site for genuine amateurs and freelancers,

This site is for everyone whether that be hobbyist, amateur, pro, semi pro or whatever title you want to give someone.

It is not OK for you to tell people, whatever their status, to go away and find somewhere else.

There are some very helpful people on here, alot of pros have given their time and advice for free and alot of people have benefitted as a result.

MODERATOR POST
ianrobinson
ianrobinson e2 Member 41108 forum postsianrobinson vcard United Kingdom8 Constructive Critique Points
29 Jan 2012 - 11:43 AM

Left-forum we are not whining just discussing how a news paper company is taking the pee out of the general tog population not just pros or semi or amateur but every tog.
I don't own a photographic company I own a Kitchen company that makes high end Kitchens such as this one we did not so long back and i am no pro tog just an amateur that makes the odd bit of money doing Weddings and portraits and selling the odd image from my site, so although it does not affect me directly it does affect others.
I do not need to earn from photography as i am fortunate enough to have worked hard for 20 years in my Kitchen company to now find time to enjoy photography as a Hobby.



img-6532-edited-1.jpg

Graflex
Graflex  11488 forum posts United Kingdom
29 Jan 2012 - 1:49 PM

Nice picture Ian...and lighting.Oh! not forget the kitchen itself.

H.

KevSB
KevSB  101410 forum posts United Kingdom5 Constructive Critique Points
29 Jan 2012 - 2:31 PM

That's it tho Ian, it's in your opinion. Not ours so a broad statement that they are taking the piss on us all and that they are taking jobs is false, as left pointed out the site is used by all types of peaple who do not consider ourself to be professionals and wish to submit pictures to who we like without the guilt laid on us that we are the devil incarnate or to simple to understand.

The fact is we know and are happy to except the rules and would like to do so without critisum for doing so, A true professional is someone who makes his sole or main income from a profession so they could consider you who does it as a hobby are taking there work, and I'm sure you would be unhappy if you was critisized for taking there work.

mikehit
mikehit  56692 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
30 Jan 2012 - 10:14 AM

You run you own kitchens business. If you could take brilliant photos of your product (like the one you attached) would you do it yourself to save money or would you do the honourable thing and hire a professional to keep someone in business?


Quote: takes the proverbial pee out of unsuspecting togs

It is up to them to read T&C, just like any other agreement.


Quote: They will be getting jo blogs to write stories for them for free soon.

Magazines that feature readers' short stories, for instance... or photo magazines that use readers' (free) pictures to illustrate good techniques.


Quote: Lets all work for nothing and see how far our economy goes then,

That is rather a facile comment as not every profesion has a queue of people willing to offer their services for free. Given that 'no pay' is the start of a continuum from zero to a zillion pounds, at what point does a payment become 'acceptable'. Is it right that a paper should sack a staff photographer and take on a feelancer for excample, where 5 magazines are using one photographer instead of employing 5 at far greater cost? Would it be alright if public contributors to the paper were paid? How much - 5, 10, 50?

I can understand the frustration of professionals who see their living being eroded but I think there are a lot of spurious arguments used.

keithh
keithh e2 Member 1023196 forum postskeithh vcard Wallis and Futuna33 Constructive Critique Points
31 Jan 2012 - 8:02 AM

I wonder how Ian would view me if I decided to start offering a bit of part time kitchen design or even some bespoke production and then after a couple of years pottering about with that, I then decided that I would start to teach people how to do the same?


Quote: I don't own a photographic company

...but your website would argue against that.
Wink

pabloisme
pabloisme  4565 forum posts England
31 Jan 2012 - 9:05 AM

Keith that's how experts are made! it goes 1 seen it, 2 nothing in it = 3 I can do that!

you see the cowboy (or is it cow....sons) builder programmes on TV?
where the ability to sell (spread the BS?) is greater than skills, and
the greed of the buyer is also greater (negating sanity?) whereby the buyer loses


BUT

until we have a licencing* method like the "gas safe" (it was corgi) for heating engineers, FOR all trades & traders. with a set level of skills and ability, it is the man who sells best wins?

*mmm this would blow out:- bankers, news reporters, politicians etc. (so would NEVER be passed by MP's!)

yours = dog eat dog!

ps. I have a client of many years, who got a DSLR and cut me out of the image taking side, all now on the web production side & DONT GO awwwww cos....

I now earn more NOT going out! "photoshopping" his awful images, backgrounds and lighting and shadows and colour cast and... and sniggering!

Last Modified By pabloisme at 31 Jan 2012 - 9:06 AM
mikehit
mikehit  56692 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
31 Jan 2012 - 10:11 AM


Quote: I now earn more NOT going out! "photoshopping" his awful images, backgrounds and lighting and shadows and colour cast and... and sniggering!

LOL! Easy money if you can find it.

KevSB
KevSB  101410 forum posts United Kingdom5 Constructive Critique Points
31 Jan 2012 - 10:32 AM

And a good point. the fact is that other skills are now more better paid, Anyone can pick up a cameraand lessons on composition ect, but the one thing you cannot pick up easy is bussness, marketing, and graphic artist skills, these are what peaple will pay for including the newspapers, saw an article last year where a photographer/artist did for a news paper which wanted an image of Britian going down the sink hole, The article showd how the pictures are taken and minpulated to give the desired image, thats not something you can get for free.

I realise someone hold onto the past but as I see it as a trade the world of photography is changing.

thewilliam
31 Jan 2012 - 10:33 AM

Many punters do equate having a nice camera with being a good photographer.

We probably all know snappers who drift into "professional" photography after buying an expensive camera.

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