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keithh
keithh e2 Member 1022911 forum postskeithh vcard Wallis and Futuna31 Constructive Critique Points
31 Jan 2012 - 2:58 PM


Quote: How do I take that Kieth?

You have a website, Ian - it offers photographic services and goods for remuneration. You can argue the difference between a business and a company until the cows come home.

No conusion intended, Ian - just a straight question.

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31 Jan 2012 - 2:58 PM

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keithh
keithh e2 Member 1022911 forum postskeithh vcard Wallis and Futuna31 Constructive Critique Points
31 Jan 2012 - 2:59 PM


Quote: Oh by the way pottering around designing and making hand crafted Kitchens takes years and years of hard work and skill to achieve a top class kitchen so by all means crack on Kieth clearly it's so easy.
I have only been designing and making kitchens for 20 years.

WHOOOOOOOOOOSH!
Wink

ianrobinson
ianrobinson e2 Member 41107 forum postsianrobinson vcard United Kingdom8 Constructive Critique Points
31 Jan 2012 - 3:12 PM

oh dear your clearly someone that feels he needs the last word so go for it Kieth im bored now.Wink

keithh
keithh e2 Member 1022911 forum postskeithh vcard Wallis and Futuna31 Constructive Critique Points
31 Jan 2012 - 3:18 PM

Nothing to do with last words, Ian - its just that I feel the same way about photography that you feel about kitchen design and manufacturing.

It takes more than a bit of pottering about on a weekend before you're sufficiently skilled to teach what little you know.

ianrobinson
ianrobinson e2 Member 41107 forum postsianrobinson vcard United Kingdom8 Constructive Critique Points
31 Jan 2012 - 3:43 PM

lol there you go say no more laughing so much now......

ade_mcfade
ade_mcfade e2 Member 1014794 forum postsade_mcfade vcard England216 Constructive Critique Points
31 Jan 2012 - 3:49 PM

#thud#

Sooty_1
Sooty_1 Critique Team 41201 forum posts United Kingdom198 Constructive Critique Points
31 Jan 2012 - 4:02 PM

The simple fact, whether talking about kitchens or photography, is that the market is changing, and photographers need to evolve with it if they need to live on the proceeds.

If the "customer" is clever (editors getting public to fill their products with free images) or stupid (a punter booking a photo course with someone that knows little more than them about the subject), the fact remains that there are people who will answer the call.

I don't particularly like the "erosion" of photography as a profession (from a financial point of view), but if people do submit images for free, the paper would be stupid to spend unnecessary money paying for an employed photographer.

Consider: if a company invented a relatively cheap machine that would produce a complete kitchen with no effort at all, lots of people would refit their own kitchens at very low cost in effort or money. They would then consider it an easy way to make money on the side and jump on the bandwagon - then the bespoke kitchen market would go the same way, as every Tom, **** and Harry would be doing it in the hope of making an easy buck.

There is no distinction between someone who has honed their trade over many years, and a relative newcomer, save who can market themselves the best. There are many photographers out there who are producing rubbish and getting away with it, while the craftsmen cannot get business, because they can market themselves better. They are selling what the market wants, even though the standards are lower, because peoples' expectations are lower.

Again...why would anyone spend 1000s for a photographer, when an amateur will supply a (probably not quite so good) similar image for nothing?

ianrobinson
ianrobinson e2 Member 41107 forum postsianrobinson vcard United Kingdom8 Constructive Critique Points
31 Jan 2012 - 4:35 PM


Quote: Consider: if a company invented a relatively cheap machine that would produce a complete kitchen with no effort at all, lots of people would refit their own kitchens at very low cost in effort or money. They would then consider it an easy way to make money on the side and jump on the bandwagon - then the bespoke kitchen market would go the same way, as every Tom, **** and Harry would be doing it in the hope of making an easy buck.

Companies have invented machines to make kitchens cheaper they are called cnc machines.
And i very much doubt everyone will get on the band wagon making bespoke hand crafted kitchens as this takes years and years of training and learning mind you if they want to do it then good luck because from my point of view it takes a long time to get a good reputation for quality and service and in my opinion the ones that give that will always have work through resessions or otherwise.
But for me personally i demand quality in my life, i want quality i don't want a pile of rubbish that will last five minuetes because i saved a few quid on a quality item that would last and last.
most People want quality in there lives and quality sells over rubbish and always will, the MFI'S of this world will come and go because of the lack of service and product quality and the lack of value for money.
Did you realise that quality does not have to cost a fortune either, on the Kitchen i put on here i sold that with granite and fitting for 2,000.00 cheeper than a B&Q kitchen and that is fact.
That Kitchen cost the customer 18,000.00 and B&Q wanted 20,000.00 for there kitchen and there's no comparison.
The Kitchen you see there is all hardwoods, english oak drawers inside and out tulip wood fronts dovetailed drawers front and back all frames are morticed and tennoned with soft close drawers and doors made to last a life time, can you honestly tell me that a chip board kitchen with plastic drawer liners and internals is going to last a life time and is more costly.
It's a no brainer really don't you think.

We all know what quality is surely. you should know what is right and what is wrong unless you have never tasted quality of course then you would never know maybe.

keithh
keithh e2 Member 1022911 forum postskeithh vcard Wallis and Futuna31 Constructive Critique Points
31 Jan 2012 - 5:09 PM


Quote: lol there you go say no more laughing so much now......

I never argue with blind fools or those who believe their own nonsense. You believe that you have sufficient photographic knowledge to teach others and yet would argue the fact that I could not acquire the same level of 'expertise' in kitchen design by the same means in the same time.

KathyW
KathyW  111793 forum posts Norfolk Island12 Constructive Critique Points
31 Jan 2012 - 5:30 PM


Quote: lol there you go say no more laughing so much now......

I never argue with blind fools or those who believe their own nonsense. You believe that you have sufficient photographic knowledge to teach others and yet would argue the fact that I could not acquire the same level of 'expertise' in kitchen design by the same means in the same time.

Sure you can build a kitchen Keith, it's easy. My hubby (a mechanic at the time) fitted an MFI one for me over 20 years ago. It's still good as new, every drawer runs smoothly, every cupboard door is still hanging perfectly square, which is actually something of a miracle after the stick those doors get after I've been reading some of the posts on here... Wink

strawman
strawman  1022006 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
31 Jan 2012 - 6:00 PM

Ian the parallel looks very obvious to me.

Having fitted 3 kitchens and two bathrooms I have now decided I am a professional kitchen/bathroom/wedding fitter, errrr photographer.

Lets be honest, any numpty can download a bit of CAD software and using standard unit sizes design a kitchen using high quality parts from suppliers. And It is amazingly easy to use a router to get very clean joints in worktops without those terrible joining strips, and fit integrated appliances is far easier than I expected. I know I have done it and achieved a better design than offered by B&Q and a few more upmarket companies. The first one sold my house the new buyer liked it so much. The latest one fitted in 2004 is going fine. Wish I had 20K to blow on a kitchen.

Also any numpty can buy a camera and a couple of lenses and go out and take some photo's.

The barriers to entry are low for both and some of them will produce poorly designed badly made things, while sometimes the amateur will spend more time and thought than the professional and turn out a better job, some will not.

to be at the top takes skill and time in both. To be at the bottom just takes a desire to have a go. Cannot see much of a difference myself. Personally speaking I would find it easier to go professional and make a living designing/fitting kitchens & Bathrooms than I would to go professional at photography

Last Modified By strawman at 31 Jan 2012 - 6:02 PM
ianrobinson
ianrobinson e2 Member 41107 forum postsianrobinson vcard United Kingdom8 Constructive Critique Points
31 Jan 2012 - 9:41 PM

ignorance is bliss Sad

Sooty_1
Sooty_1 Critique Team 41201 forum posts United Kingdom198 Constructive Critique Points
31 Jan 2012 - 10:23 PM

In that case, enlighten me, what makes fitting kitchens any harder than producing a great photograph?

You really haven't comprehended a word I've written.

Last Modified By Sooty_1 at 31 Jan 2012 - 10:25 PM
Just Jas
Just Jas  1225751 forum posts England1 Constructive Critique Points
31 Jan 2012 - 11:00 PM

Which is Harder - Kitchen or Photo?

Fight!

It's getting a bit like TV Burp!Grin

Well, I guess the old hen reckons it's hard to lay an egg and the cow reckons it's hard to give birth to a calf.

Can't say, myself, as I've never done either.

But I guess that they both have a point! Wink

ade_mcfade
ade_mcfade e2 Member 1014794 forum postsade_mcfade vcard England216 Constructive Critique Points
31 Jan 2012 - 11:08 PM

quite amazed that people have actually been discussing kitchen design... wasn't mentioned to simply illustrate a point? Wink

I prefer the Brain Surgeon analogy...

You've carved a few joints, spatchcocked the odd chicken, so got a great foundation for teaching the future brain surgeons

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