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pulsar69
pulsar69  101611 forum posts United Kingdom6 Constructive Critique Points
29 Dec 2006 - 11:13 AM

Ok , this clicks for friends business keeps coming up , and why , because its VERY relavant. People say oh no not that old thing , but then do they care anymore ?.

The voting system on EPZ is now out of date , it is no longer necessary to see how many people have clicked , who cares , what counts is comments and peoples views, empty clicks from mates are worth nowt.

Even i find myself drawn into this system when I post what i think is a great shot and it gets no votes , then you get to wondering if you post at a different time of day will u get more , then u just delete it and think maybe its not so good. At the end of the day it may have been a marvellous piece of work but it is devalued by this system.

The system of getting a reader award for 30 clicks means nothing any more , I have had a couple of highly recommendeds from Pete and they mean a whole lot more..

I think the only clicks we need now are clicks to vote wether to keep clicks or just comments.

PLease feel free to join in this discussion , its not old , its now , and it wont go away by ignoring it , lets make epz about the photos ..


1 person has said .. no clicks

and please epz if people feel strongly , can we change it ?

Andy Davies

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29 Dec 2006 - 11:13 AM

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mattw
mattw  105189 forum posts United Kingdom10 Constructive Critique Points
29 Dec 2006 - 11:18 AM

This question may already have been answered for you. The following post was made by Pete in another thread recently:


Quote: We discussed a way to improve this which will be set in the new site build which we are calling V4 (version 4) We realise that the RC (which was intended to be recognition of outstanding photography, selected by readers as a way of offering an alternative to EC) is very much a personal click based on much more. We wouldn't want to get rid of this as it's very much part of the site, but doesn't work in quite the way many feel it should...which is why we end up with endless click debates. V4 planning is done, and work starts on the 2nd when the team get back from hols.

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deviant
deviant  103024 forum posts United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
29 Dec 2006 - 11:25 AM

In answer to the original question I don't really agree that the click system is an issue. The only real danger is that you take pictures obtain clicks and no other reason which is sad as nothing really new or creative will come out of that. But that's an individuals choice to make I think.

mdpontin
mdpontin  106016 forum posts Scotland
29 Dec 2006 - 11:29 AM

I think Matthew's (mattw) reply sums it up pretty well. I also disagree with the suggestion that there is any burying of heads in sand about this question. What there is is a lack of consensus because not everybody sees it as a problem.

I stand by what I've said many times before:
1. Different people want differing things from the site - not everyone uses it in the same way.
2. Not everyone gets clicks from their mates, or even reciprocal clicks, so please don't assume that they're equally valueless for everyone.
3. Clicks are, at best, only an indication that people who looked at your photo liked it for whatever reason - that might be just because it was a photo of a fluffy kitten, not necessarily because it was technically perfect!

Hopefully the new feature(s) in the upcoming v4 will address some of the heartache this subject seems to cause for some members, without upsetting those who don't see any serious problems with the existing system.

Edit: also agree with David's (deviant) posting above.

Doug

mattw
mattw  105189 forum posts United Kingdom10 Constructive Critique Points
29 Dec 2006 - 11:33 AM

For my 2p's worth Andy, I believe that much of the problem people often think 'clicks' are 'votes'; which they really are not.

A click is simply a way of show appreciation of an image - and nothing more.

There is no competition about who has the highest click count.

When I click a photo, I am saying 'I like this photograph'. I an NOT saying 'I think this photograph is better than x,y,z'

Mattw

cameracat
cameracat  108578 forum posts Norfolk Island61 Constructive Critique Points
29 Dec 2006 - 11:37 AM


Quote: For my 2p's worth Andy, I believe that much of the problem people often think 'clicks' are 'votes'; which they really are not.

A click is simply a way of show appreciation of an image - and nothing more.

There is no competition about who has the highest click count.

When I click a photo, I am saying 'I like this photograph'. I an NOT saying 'I think this photograph is better than x,y,z'


In A NutShell, Well said Mattw.

Vince

kaybee
kaybee  103767 forum posts Scotland24 Constructive Critique Points
29 Dec 2006 - 11:52 AM

Here Here.

pulsar69
pulsar69  101611 forum posts United Kingdom6 Constructive Critique Points
29 Dec 2006 - 11:56 AM

Some of the views allready are what I was expecting , there is still a long way to go before poeple actually admit the system doesnt work , and i am no newcomer myself so I understand the system well , when I first joined I was over the moon to get a click , because they were infrequent and people wrote comments aswell. Now I can get 30 clicks and 10 comments , if your going to click whats the point if you dont say why ?

Doug , I am not making assumptions on the value of clicks ,it is a plain fact that clicks are now devalued and have been for some time , the only thing that means anything is peoples views and opinions and help and advice to move forward.

I am a member of another site and on that site there are stats for pageviews , but not votes , but there are comments , and also pointers to wether someone looked at the large version of your shot or not.

I am glad there are new additions in the new version and hope it will sort out whats going on as I really would like to renew my subscription.

Mattw , to say there is no competition in the click count is wrong , that is the whole point of a scoring system , and it will always create competition. We are humans and cant help ourselves but compete if given a measure to go by.
That in itself is not a problem , but it would be like a panel of anyoldbodies judging the olympics , there could be friends , enemies , even people who had no idea about sports , how fair would that then be>?

There needs to be more to it than just clicking.

deviant
deviant  103024 forum posts United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
29 Dec 2006 - 12:08 PM

I used several other sites with worse systems and some with similar ones. I think if the system is tuned a bit it'll be fine.

mattw
mattw  105189 forum posts United Kingdom10 Constructive Critique Points
29 Dec 2006 - 12:17 PM

Clicks are feedback - not a scoring system. If you are looking for a scoring system and competition, then there is the gallery of excellence.

Note: I am NOT saying they are valueless - quite the oppisite actually.



Quote: We are humans and cant help ourselves but compete if given a measure to go by.

This is very true, but you need to be very carefull that the statistics support your conclusions.

Further, if you are getting 30 clicks and 10 comments (and yes, I have been getting this too recently) - then we need to ask why people are not commenting more, rather than suggesting they should be clicking less.

In any event - Pete has some ideas up his sleave - I suggest that we see what happens with V4 and go from there.

Mattw

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stevekhart
29 Dec 2006 - 12:18 PM

Ok I admit it, the system doesn't work. I think we should do the following:

1. Ban all other forums - there is only one truth
2. Implement a postal voting system whereby people are given a limited number of votes to cast per year
3. Limit entries to only film-based photos from professional togs. We don't want to give the voters any opportunities to vote for amateur photoshopped dross.

I think this will go a long way to fixing the system.


Wink

MikeRC
MikeRC e2 Member 93488 forum postsMikeRC vcard United Kingdom
29 Dec 2006 - 12:25 PM

If you did a poll...Clicks vs. No Clicks, I am sure the answer would be "no clicks", but if you did a poll where an answer was mandatory...eg. can't log on till you've voted, in that case I am sure the response would be an overwhelming "keep clicks"

To say that an RC means nothing is outrageous, I and thousands more on this site think otherwise.

I like the click system, It is hard evidence that people are looking at my pictures, however I am not naive, I know my stuff is not good but if some members did not click my work then I would not post and if I didn't post I would not subscribe to EPZ, no loss, many would say, but it wouldn't be just me.

Eventually EPZ would consist of a band of "elite" photographers and intellectuals which is, I feel, what the "no clicks brigade would prefer.

"If it's not broke don't fix it"

...Mike

mdpontin
mdpontin  106016 forum posts Scotland
29 Dec 2006 - 12:26 PM


Quote: Doug , I am not making assumptions on the value of clicks ,it is a plain fact that clicks are now devalued and have been for some time , the only thing that means anything is peoples views and opinions and help and advice to move forward.

My point is, that not everyone agrees with your assertion that "it is a plain fact that clicks are now devalued". I'm aware of the shortcomings in the system, but provided you understand what clicks represent (i.e. not what you think they should represent) then there isn't a problem. What does devalue them, though, is to be told that the clicks you got on your photo were only received because your mates clicked on it! That may be true in some cases, but it most certainly isn't true for everyone.

Some (not a few) members are delighted to receive clicks, and ecstatic if they get a Readers Choice. That doesn't mean that they (a) have lots of mates, or (b) are getting lots of reciprocal clicks. Conversely it doesn't necessarily mean that they're the world's greatest photographer, and those who take that meaning from an RC are, I'm sure, very much in the minority. What the present system provides is enjoyment (and yes, encouragement) for a great many members.

Is there room for some other system which provides what you (and others) are looking for? Of course there is, and that's what Pete and the team are hoping to address in the new year.

Doug

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139390 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
29 Dec 2006 - 12:27 PM

A rather more interesting question is "why do some people worry about other people's clicks"?

Hmmmm...... any psychologists on here? ;-D

cameracat
cameracat  108578 forum posts Norfolk Island61 Constructive Critique Points
29 Dec 2006 - 12:27 PM

Just my own personal reason for clicking without comment.

Sometimes the comment is not required because it would be a repeat of one already made, And then there is the silent appreciation of an Image and the work that has gone into it, Without the need to add comment, And in some cases it's a time thing ( but rarely ).

>V

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