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Scottish referendum.

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lemmy
lemmy  71944 forum posts United Kingdom
17 Feb 2014 - 10:17 PM

Everyone comes out with scare stories and what if this and what if that. If Scotland votes for independence it will be coped with in the light of that vote.

Why are so many people frightened of change? Scotland was once an independant country, then it was not. Things changed then and everyone coped.

They will cope this time too if that is the way the vote goes. I think that if I were Scottish and knew that any government I was likely to have in the future would be one that my country had not voted for, I might vote for independence.

I doubt that Scots will vote for independence but if they do surely only those with malevolence in their hearts will try to punish people voting for what they think is their best interest?

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17 Feb 2014 - 10:17 PM

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brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110369 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
17 Feb 2014 - 10:57 PM


Quote: I doubt that Scots will vote for independence but if they do surely only those with malevolence in their hearts will try to punish people voting for what they think is their best interest?

is it malevolent to apply the same logic to those of us who remain in the UK, ie: we will want to do what is best for us, which it does seem is not to underwrite the economics of an independent Scotland via the UK pound and the bank of England but to expect them to be a truly independent country with their own currency and economic central banking system?

And how much better to have the debate before the event rather than scurrying around trying to sort things out afterwards and having the Scottish Parliament and people saying, "you never told us we would be on our own"

thewilliam
17 Feb 2014 - 11:07 PM

While we're at this independence lark, why not for Wales or even Cornwall? Now that Ulstermen are in a minority, why not give Northern Ireland a chance to return to the Republic?

mikehit
mikehit  56692 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
17 Feb 2014 - 11:14 PM

I have heard several Scots being interviewed recently saying how Salmond is asking them to vote for a wishlist - either the Scots are finally realising what decision they are facing, or the sceptics are getting more airtime.

lemmy
lemmy  71944 forum posts United Kingdom
18 Feb 2014 - 12:00 AM


Quote: While we're at this independence lark, why not for Wales or even Cornwall? Now that Ulstermen are in a minority, why not give Northern Ireland a chance to return to the Republic?

That's a perverse way of looking at it. Why not let England vote for independence and the rest do what they like?

And Brian, far from having a debate, we are now trying to bully people into doing what we (not me, I am for Scottish independence) want. I may be in a minority but when people start to use dark threats instead of arguments I doubt their case.

The EU has been desperate to let countries in, even to the point of falsifying their accounts to make it possible. Are we then to believe they won't let Scotland in?

The sheer double dealing and hypocracy of all this appals me. If Scotland votes for independance, we will cope and so will they. As I've said before, if Salmond truly wanted full independence, he wouldn't have been campaigning for the Scots to vote, he'd have been campaigning for the English to vote.

comma
comma  6101 forum posts United Kingdom6 Constructive Critique Points
18 Feb 2014 - 12:28 AM

This might have been an interesting debate.

Currently the party with the ruling majority in Scotland is the Scottish National Party. In or around 2007 the SNP formed a minority government. In 2010 the SNP won a clear overall majority in the Scottish Parliamentary elections. Basically the scale of the victory was set against a political voting system that was designed not to deliver a single party majority. Faced with this very strong mandate and as a party who have since day 1 had independence as a core political value, it would be entirely disingenuous if it did not take the opportunity to ask the people of Scotland to vote on this issue.

Far from being one man’s (Alex Salmond’s) grab for glory and history, the majority party of the parliament in Scotland is exercising the ticket it has principally stood for since Day 1 of it’s existence. It is putting this to the vote in the period of its parliament. This seems to be entirely fair and correct, in direct comparison to the slightly shabby and dishonourable politics that covers the UK and sees the governing parties break core promises on Student Loans and avoids a vote on European membership because it refuses to face up to the political risk it faces

govern the UK at any cost springs to mind.

The issues facing the Scottish people are significant and really need to be explored
In Scotland the "better together" campaign is characterised by a series of presumptions about Scotland. Predominately they settle on the following areas:

Scotland is heavily subsidised by the rest of the UK.
Scotland is not fiscally viable or competent
Scotland will not be able to afford to defend itself
Oil revenue will run out shortly
Scotland will not be allowed to join the EU
Scotland will not be allowed the pound
Scotland should sit back and let Westminster make the key decisions on it’s future. Their track record is vastly superior to that delivered by the devolved government in Scotland.

Basically all of this is centred around casting doubt about Scotland’s ability or rather it’s inability to govern itself. And of course this picture is correct, Scotland is made up of a bunch of scrounging, welching social inadequates. The more observant readers should now be asking their MP’s why the hell is Westminster supporting a “Better Together” campaign. Why exactly are we better together? The rest of the UK has far more to gain from letting Scotand go its own way.

Clearly the rest of the UK is well rid… I would urge all rest of the UK constituents to get their MP’s behind the yes vote. It is the only way forward…. These are tough decisions, big decisions etc etc etc etc

In May the European elections take place. It will be interesting to see the outcome. As a consequence Scots may not only be faced with a vote for independence but may have decide whether the 2014 referendum becomes a vote for joining Europe (no matter how long it may take to achieve) or voting no to independence and leaving Europe as part of the UK.

collywobles
18 Feb 2014 - 9:09 AM


Quote: why not give Northern Ireland a chance to return to the Republic?

I'll drink to that, have said this since the 1970's, would have saved hundreds of lives.

mikehit
mikehit  56692 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
18 Feb 2014 - 9:15 AM


Quote:

The EU has been desperate to let countries in, even to the point of falsifying their accounts to make it possible. Are we then to believe they won't let Scotland in?



Apparently the EU rules specifically say that if a country is created by a move of independence from a member state, the new state has to apply afresh and it will be approved on unanimous vote. Can you Spain, with its Catalan and Basque separatist movements agree to that?
As for the Euro, the state has to demonstrate convergence for 3 years before it can join. If Scotland maintains the UK Pound, it is no independent to demonstrate convergence and if it gets its own currency it has a cat in hell's chance to demonstrate convergence because banks will lend a punitive rates until it has demonstrated ability to control finances.

As an Englishman, I am not particularly bothered if Scotland vote for or against independence. But Salmong is being at best disingenuous and at worst highly deceptive in his comments about how it will work.



Quote: I may be in a minority but when people start to use dark threats instead of arguments I doubt their case.

I am not sure what dark threats you are referring to, but it seems to me, that Salmond thinks he can make any claim he wants about joining EU, joining the Euro or having monetary union with the UK, but as soon as people say 'it won't necessarily work that way' he acts like a five year old told he can't have those sweeties and how unfair life is.

mikehit
mikehit  56692 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
18 Feb 2014 - 9:25 AM


Quote: In Scotland the "better together" campaign is characterised by a series of presumptions about Scotland.

Whereas Salmond's claims are based on as assumption he will get whatever he wants:
Membership of EU - not guaranteed
Join the Euro from day 1 - impossible given they have to prove convergence for 3 years
monetary union with the remaining UK - only if the rest of the UK agrees to cede some sovereignty to Scotland who has basically said 'we don't want to be part of you any more'
all projections on financial viability (and being a current net UK contributor) are based on the presumption that Scotland will own all the oil

Is rest of UK well rid of Scotland? Nope.
Is Scotland better off outside the UK? I very much doubt it in the long term but if that is the way they want to vote, so be it. But do so knowing the full risks.

But then again, as one commentator put it a fair while ago: this question long ago ceased to be about finance or politics - it is an emotional one. But the problem is that many decision made based on emotion have a habit of being regretted.

lemmy
lemmy  71944 forum posts United Kingdom
18 Feb 2014 - 9:26 AM


Quote: This might have been an interesting debate

I enjoyed reading that, comma, thanks. Unfortunately, debates aren't really possible in the UK because due to our overly emotional nature, we prefer slanging matches.

I used often to work with Germans and after a few years living here they all would come to a similar conclusion about the English. When they came here, they thought we were like them (for better or worse) but actually our temperament was much more like the Italians.

Our arguments all became yah-boo slanging matches, we talked of doing things but never did them and our levels of corruption were perceived as low only because what were crimes elsewhere were regarded as normal business practice here.

We have a situation where England's affairs can be voted on by the Scots but not Scots' by the English. Our solution? Pretend it isn't happening. The Scots have a situation where they are ruled by a government that has not one representative in the country. Our solution to that? Pretend it isn't happening.

Also, since so many English want to leave the EU, how can we use the idea that Scotland might not be able to join as a threat? Isn't that a recommendation? In 1999, Alex Salmond described the pound as "a millstone around Scotland's neck". Now he wants to use it as his independant Scotland's currency.

Where do we find these people?

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110369 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
18 Feb 2014 - 12:45 PM


Quote: Where do we find these people?

or, to put it another way, why on earth do people vote for them?

(maybe no one suitable to be an MP wants to be any more? )

cuffit
cuffit  7180 forum posts England2 Constructive Critique Points
18 Feb 2014 - 6:43 PM

I, for one, would be sorry to see Scotland leave the United Kingdom; the differences between us all in UK being a great strength in my opinion. But if Scotland choose to leave then so be it. However, unlike medieval times and a little later, trying to sort out the division of assets, debts and organisations will be like trying to nail a jelly to the wall. Also, all the hard questions appear to be lying in wait post-election, so how will all that be resolved in just 18 months from a standing start? Apart from unintended consequences though, the worst outcome for remaining countries is being bank of last resort to an independent country that we have no control over. Independence must mean a clean and clear divide; the currency 'card' at least addresses that issue before the vote. There is also the vexed question of a general election and EU elections post-referendum - what a mess.

Last Modified By cuffit at 18 Feb 2014 - 6:45 PM
keithh
keithh e2 Member 1023189 forum postskeithh vcard Wallis and Futuna33 Constructive Critique Points
18 Feb 2014 - 6:47 PM

I was speaking with a Glaswegian today. He is a Scotsman through and through and would if he could survive on deep fried pizza and as he said, if England were playing Namibia at Tiddlywinks he would want England to lose.

He will not be voting for Independance.

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110369 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
18 Feb 2014 - 6:56 PM


Quote: He will not be voting for Independance.

Probably be thrown out of his own country if Salmond wins and they find out Grin

(Will we provide asylum for Scottish Refugees? Tongue)

Last Modified By brian1208 at 18 Feb 2014 - 6:56 PM
keithh
keithh e2 Member 1023189 forum postskeithh vcard Wallis and Futuna33 Constructive Critique Points
18 Feb 2014 - 7:02 PM

His opinion of Salmond is unprintable. Wink

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