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monstersnowman
21 Dec 2012 - 9:26 AM

Then also consider that a sizeable amount come over in later life when they are a burden on society relying on state medical care, some actually come here solely FOR state medical care and many actually spend little of their income (which anyway amounts to a tax credit supported negative contribution in this country) and send their unspent income back home or once settled bring over all their dependants ...

Of course this isn't always the case but, as previously stated, you can supply any nice isolated stat about one migrant earning a taxable income but that may have multiple unconsidered considerations. I have absolutely no idea how bad or good this uncontrolled migration is and I doubt anyone else here does either, or indeed our government. Certainly any increased population comes with the burden of an ever increasing aged population that we seem certain to be unable to support and attracting a workforce that is taxed but which still does not contribute does not address this time bomb and certainly compounds the issue.


Quote:

The large part of your sub 40k drawing on the system rather than contributing is in the first 18 years of life. Education and child health care don't come cheap, so it is unlikely that a large number of first generation immigrants would fall into that catagory

How large ? Or actually is it large - 4 or 5 years before school then 11 or 12 years in education, as opposed to a further 50 or 60 years (or much longer) of claiming tax credits, other benefits as a potentially negative contributing earner and an ever increasing time as a medically expensive aged person requiring medical help, also on benefit/pension etc - maybe that time as a child in education is actually far less of a proportion than you may think ( maybe the cheapest part of a persons state dependant life). You also mention child care, a working migrant maybe paying a little tax but even the childcare costs of his offspring may totally wipe out their small tax contribution alone, especially when the population is increasing. And also you state 'first generation' - you therefore accept that this is only a temporary small reprieve (if it is at all) before 2nd, 3rd generation etc . Again it is a very complicated issue.

My parents live abroad and don't get one single solitary euro in assistance with the exception of basic accident and emergency medical care.

Last Modified By monstersnowman at 21 Dec 2012 - 9:27 AM
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Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
21 Dec 2012 - 9:29 AM


Quote: If you check the figures you would find the people coming to the UK from Eastern Europe are far more likely to be paying tax etc than UK residents.

Dubious, doubtful and more than likely incorrect. Politicians put out such crap in order to defend their past decicions in propounding such mass immigration. Another Labour failed initiative.

Actually I don't know why I said that as I cannot recall one that didn't fail!

collywobles
21 Dec 2012 - 9:38 AM


Quote: because they get preferential treatment for Social Security benefits.

That is a Fallacy put around by UKIP and the BNP.


Quote: I don`t see it that way John, there`s some 700, 000 immigrants working in the UK, that`s a lot of jobs that could have reduced are dole queue, and these are just those working legally.

Yet another of the grand but untrue fact. Most of the jobs that imigrants do are the jobs that lots of our own UK residents refuse to do because they would prefer to sit on their fat arse and do nothing and claim benefits.

Last Modified By collywobles at 21 Dec 2012 - 9:43 AM
Fishnet
Fishnet  94976 forum posts United Kingdom5 Constructive Critique Points
21 Dec 2012 - 9:51 AM

Actually the reason UK people won't do the jobs the immigrants do is because they don't pay enough. If you sleep on a mattress on the floor in a house with 20 other Albanians and send the money back home that's fine, if you have a wife, 2 kids and a mortgage it's not.

thewilliam
21 Dec 2012 - 10:33 AM

Getting back to the title of the thread, our judiciary often seems to give out unduly lenient penalties and to Brits as well.

There was a local case where a couple of unruly youths decided to race their cars at 80mph in a built-up area after a drinking session, The man managed to hit and kill a teenage girl who was unfortunate enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It turned out that he was unlicenced and uninsured as well as drunk. The sentence given to both participants so disgusted the public that the Court had to listen to the dead girl's mother and the sentences were increased on appeal.

If criminals were given a harsher sentence at the start of their careers and if prisons actually tried to rehabilitate, maybe they could be steered away from a life crime.

Maybe crime should be seen as a form of mental illness and criminals should be kept in prison until they're "cured" or at least made safe so that they don't offend again. Sharia Law has a lot to recommend it: a harsh telling off the first time. flogging the second, either hand or head chopped off for the incorrigible.

collywobles
21 Dec 2012 - 10:34 AM


Quote: Actually the reason UK people won't do the jobs the immigrants do is because they don't pay enough.

Thats exactly my point - our own people would sooner sit on their arse than do a days work. Pay scales have nothing to do with it, they choose not to work. The day we start making people work and earn benefits things might just change.

thewilliam
21 Dec 2012 - 10:45 AM

When people have a lot of children to support, a modestly paid job will give a lot less than Social Security. We can't blame people for maximising their disposible income.

The benefits and tax systems were formulated for a good reasons. The lenient tax regime for corporations and very wealthy individuals is a payback to the party donors and the lenient benefit regime was designed so that poorer people would vote Labour. The birth rate does seem to be higher at the lbottom end of the social scale.

Fishnet
Fishnet  94976 forum posts United Kingdom5 Constructive Critique Points
21 Dec 2012 - 10:55 AM


Quote: Actually the reason UK people won't do the jobs the immigrants do is because they don't pay enough.

Thats exactly my point - our own people would sooner sit on their arse than do a days work. Pay scales have nothing to do with it, they choose not to work. The day we start making people work and earn benefits things might just change.

That's a very black and white take on it, would you consider me one of those people?

mattw
mattw  105189 forum posts United Kingdom10 Constructive Critique Points
21 Dec 2012 - 12:02 PM


Quote: If criminals were given a harsher sentence at the start of their careers and if prisons actually tried to rehabilitate, maybe they could be steered away from a life crime.

Maybe crime should be seen as a form of mental illness and criminals should be kept in prison until they're "cured" or at least made safe so that they don't offend again. Sharia Law has a lot to recommend it: a harsh telling off the first time. flogging the second, either hand or head chopped off for the incorrigible.

the reason we don't 'rehabilitate' criminals is because it would cost a heck of a lot of money.

And anyway, 'criminality' is not an illness - history has shown that even with harsh penalties, criminals still break the law. The real problem is inequality in society, and the gap between rich and poor.

that said, when someone does commit a serious crime (as is the case here), they need more than a petty slap on the wrist - and if are a migrant who commits a serious crime, you should be sent packing.

cathal
cathal  9492 forum posts Ireland4 Constructive Critique Points
21 Dec 2012 - 12:07 PM

Back in the 90's the Tories made single mothers the pariah of society. Today, those same people are making people on benefit the pariah. It's a great way to redirect the ire of the populous away from the government and onto each other.

Regarding the judiciary and penal system, the problem as I see it is that far too much concern is given to the welfare of the criminal, and the penal element is now almost absent.

scruffytrafford

You all have valid points and I agree with most of you on most things, but many do seem have made the mistake of one hat fits all, is it not the fact that every case has two sides, what about the people in the UK that have paid a stamp all their lives, and then lose their jobs, and can't find another, they never had problems finding jobs before but now because of the current social upheaval it has become impossible in some cases, they have paid in to a system to help them in these cases, all their working lives, they have paid national insurance, for this very reason, don't you think in this case it is unfair to class these people as fat and lazy, just because life is tough..... and don't forget that also these people are going to be asked to be working longer when they do actually find another job (67 or 68 at the moment, heaven knows what it will be when I get there, and I am 43 at the moment) then..... then IMHO there will not be a state pension either, so what may they ask have they been paying in to all these years, so would you really blame them if they said sod it.... a slave all their lives to a system that doesn't work with no chance of freedom until they are too old to enjoy retirement.

Just a thought, not to get anyone's backs up,just an alternative thought.

Last Modified By scruffytrafford at 21 Dec 2012 - 1:34 PM
cameracat
cameracat  108575 forum posts Norfolk Island61 Constructive Critique Points
21 Dec 2012 - 2:11 PM


Quote: just an alternative thought

One shared by millions in this so called democracy...Wink

spaceman
spaceman  105159 forum posts Wales3 Constructive Critique Points
21 Dec 2012 - 2:18 PM


Quote: "A number of people could have been victims and even if they could have been repaid by the banks, the banks would have been victims."

Well boo hoo.

Fishnet
Fishnet  94976 forum posts United Kingdom5 Constructive Critique Points
21 Dec 2012 - 2:29 PM

Well said Scruffytrafford.

It makes me sick when I hear people make nasty sweeping statements about unemployed people, words like 'fat and lazy' don't help a person whose self esteem is at an all time low as it is, it's not nice to think that the general public and the media think being unemployed equals scum of the earth.

I met some new people at the weekend and they asked the question I dread to the pit of my stomach... "So, what do you do?" How can I answer that? "I'm a single mother with 3 children and I sit on my fat lazy arse all day claiming benefits" Does anyone seriously think I would rather say that than "I work at....."

One thing I have learnt in my life is not to judge others, don't assume you know what's going on with them, appearances can be deceiving and just be careful that one day, you don't up just like that person, because poverty doesn't care who it visits.

thewilliam
21 Dec 2012 - 2:42 PM

About 15 years ago, I was made redundant on the wrong side of 50. It's a common story nowadays: they were able to hire a couple of youngsters for what they were paying me and still have some change. If I'd been just a little older, there would have been a pension but just try getting a meaningful job at that age. The number of times potential employers said, "over the hill" or too old to change.

If we can't get a job, we must make ourselves a job and it seems a lot of older folk are doing just that. I'd always wanted to be a professional photographer and here was the chance. Only snag is that thousands of others are thinking the same way!

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