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Should the LIBOR fiddlers go to jail?

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thewilliam
7 Feb 2013 - 9:52 AM

One great advantage of a free press is that it can alert the public to the misdeeds of the powerful, well some of those in power.

It's all too easy for a destructive culture to grow within an organisation so that the staff forget the real reason for the organisation's existance. Health trusts became bureaucracies instead of charitable organisations. Following rules and meeting targets became the primary aims so that patient care was all but forgotten.

People seem go most seriously astray when they believe that a corrupt system will protect them against the day of reckoning. Most defendents at the Nuremburg trials pleaded "nicht schuldig" because they had only done what the Nazi system of demanded of them. Likewise, many of those who delivered the appalling patient care at Stafford were only doing what they saw to be their duty and what the health trust had demanded of them.

I believe that it's vitally important that the errant bankers and health care "professionals" face justice. Then perhaps the majority will refuse when called upon to do something that they know in their hearts to be wrong.

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jondf
jondf  82475 forum posts
7 Feb 2013 - 3:56 PM


Quote: I believe that it's vitally important that the errant bankers and health care "professionals" face justice. Then perhaps the majority will refuse when called upon to do something that they know in their hearts to be wrong.

You're right of course but we live in a world where the dividing line between right and wrong has all but disappeared. Hype, distortion and lies get peddled ad hoc. The sin is to be found out so to hell with the truth....I'm looking after me. I could go political at this point but will spare you the histrionics .....you know who you are.

jondf
jondf  82475 forum posts
7 Feb 2013 - 4:00 PM


Quote: One great advantage of a free press is that it can alert the public to the misdeeds of the powerful

Well yes but the press are shown to have been one of those powers and as capable of power abuse as the next man.....woman......er....whatever

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102289 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
11 Feb 2013 - 8:26 AM

Nothing will change until we can elect a radical political party that does not depend on big business - and that ain't going to happen without a French style revolution. Sad
Bring on the guillotines! TongueWink

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110278 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
11 Feb 2013 - 9:35 AM


Quote: Nothing will change until we can elect a radical political party that does not depend on big business - and that ain't going to happen without a French style revolution. Sad
Bring on the guillotines! TongueWink

and just look at how well that worked out! Wink

thewilliam
11 Feb 2013 - 10:08 AM

In law, a supermarket is responsible for the goods that it sells and it cannot pass the blame onto its suppliers. That has to be a separate issue.

Are Tesco, Aldi et al "too big to prosecute" over the horsemeat scandal?

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102289 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
11 Feb 2013 - 1:04 PM


Quote: Nothing will change until we can elect a radical political party that does not depend on big business - and that ain't going to happen without a French style revolution. Sad
Bring on the guillotines! TongueWink

and just look at how well that worked out! Wink

Yes, exactly! That'ts what depresses me: Many of the super rich are so intelligent and yet so stupid as not to realise that pretty soon their abuse of power and privilege will come back to bite them on the a**e.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with being rich - within reason - but many of the rich have got where they are through paying low wages and/or dodging tax.

Sadly, I suppose if the present super-rich gang are toppled, it is likely to start all over again...Sad

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110278 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
11 Feb 2013 - 2:43 PM


Quote: through paying low wages

there's nothing wrong with paying low wages, so long as its not forced labour in a monopoly situation.

We all want the most for the least price and employers / businesses are just people like you and me, just a bit better at it Tongue

(in the same way that unions want the highest wages for the least work - there is very little altruism in the world)

Reminds me of a tale from the '70s:


the union rep reports back to the strikers and tells them that he's got them a cracking deal.

They only work Wednesdays, start at 9, 1 hour to get ready for work, tea break at 11, lunch 12-1, afternoon tea break 2.30 - 3, an hour to shut down and have a shower etc, 4 - 430 then finish. Wages up by 10% and an extra weeks paid leave.

There's silence for a few minutes until a voice cries out "What, every bloody Wednesday!" Tongue Grin Grin

thewilliam
11 Feb 2013 - 3:10 PM

In the words of the song by the Who, "meet the new boss, just like the old boss ........ we won't get fooled again".

Except that we do get fooled, again and again!

Last Modified By thewilliam at 11 Feb 2013 - 3:11 PM
mikehit
mikehit  56474 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
11 Feb 2013 - 3:19 PM


Quote: yet so stupid as not to realise that pretty soon their abuse of power and privilege will come back to bite them on the a**e.

Simple fact is they don't care. Or more exactly I guess it doesn't even occur to them, rpbably because the chance is that the rebound will happen once they've retired.
All the same way many scroungers don't realise that unless they get off their backsides there is going to be a rebound on the level of benefits handed out. There are conscientious people who can't work just as there are good considerate busienss people who are rich. Tarring a whole class of the population with the same brush is never helpful: building social benefit structure on the minority of scroungers is just as bad as building tax law round the small number of people who avoid tax.

mikehit
mikehit  56474 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
11 Feb 2013 - 4:30 PM

This is applicable to so many discussions


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adrian_w
adrian_w e2 Member 73355 forum postsadrian_w vcard Scotland4 Constructive Critique Points
11 Feb 2013 - 5:04 PM

Oh so true.

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102289 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
11 Feb 2013 - 8:56 PM


Quote: Oh so true.

Is it? Partly true, perhaps. I see it as something of an insult to youth.
I don't believe in tarring any section of society with the same brush because as I've already said - many times before - society is pretty much homogenous i.e. goodies, baddies, smarties, thickies and in-betweeners, throughout the entire strata.
This is why the French Revolution created such a terrible counter-revolution: Greed for power between rival factions and individuals who were supposed to be on the same side - then of course that charismatic but egotistic idiot Napoleon surfaced...
So that is why, I firmly believe that it is the system that fails us: we need a system that is based on justice for all and that means more government intervention i.e. more taxes for the rich and more subsidies for the economical and efficient use of resources - and a higher minimum wage. Remember that presently the richest 1% own about 25% of the wealth in this country.
As I've said, I don't see that happening because Blair and Brown's New Labour/Tory governments did nothing to correct this - big business rules - not politicians.

mikehit
mikehit  56474 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
12 Feb 2013 - 8:37 AM


Quote: Remember that presently the richest 1% own about 25% of the wealth in this country.

And 25% of the population fund the entire benefit system as net contributors - it works both ways


Quote: I firmly believe that it is the system that fails us: we need a system that is based on justice for all

Despite all the political rhetoric, I think any government in the Western world believes that is what they are aiming towards and the fact that you or I disagree with the path they are taking based on our own prejudices does not negate their intentions.
One rather bleak interpretation is that despite 10,000 years of human urban society, not one country of significant size has successfully achieved this which rather suggests it is the human condition that takes over, notably that the sort of people who want to go into power, are the sort of people you don't want in power. I remember at the 1980s/1990s economic peak, several potential scandals were reported but not really any more than that. However when the economy took a dive they all resurfaced which suggests the electorate themselves have the attitude 'I'm doing well so I don't really care what the guys in power get up to but if it all collapses God help you'. Not a pretty attitude from the electorate, either.
So what is the best we can expect from 'the system'?


Quote: Blair and Brown's New Labour/Tory governments did nothing to correct this

Do you have any evidence to suggest pre-Blair Labour was any better? I am puzzled why you continually point to Tory and (as you see them) proto-Tory parties as guilty in this and not just accept even the socialist parties are just as guitly. Wilson was one of the most self-serving power seeking PMs we ever had.

lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1014143 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
12 Feb 2013 - 9:12 AM


Quote: And 25% of the population fund the entire benefit system as net contributors - it works both ways

Where does that figure come from Mike? Would love to know how it is calculated.

Last Modified By lobsterboy at 12 Feb 2013 - 9:12 AM

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