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Should the LIBOR fiddlers go to jail?

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gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102290 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
13 Feb 2013 - 1:27 PM


Quote: Thanks for the reference, interesting reading, as is her CV and biography to date.

When ever I read input from someone new to me I like to get a feel for their particular bias (we all have one, that's human nature, the important thing is to be aware of it in any thinking)

She is clearly anti-capitalist and anti-corporate in her stance (which doesn't detract from her arguments but does make me look for her supporting evidence for her passionately held belief)s.

One more piece of information on the pile but certainly not enough to draw any conclusion from (I'm one of those analytical sceptics I called for earlier in the thread. I know how my emotions sway my reason so very boringly try to base my arguments on facts as far as possible)

I applaud your thoughts on bias, Brian and I certainly agree that it is part of human nature and I therefore think it always something to guard against. However, in the case of Naomi Klein, I don't think she is unduly biased because of her "passsionately held beliefs".
This woman has received many accolades for writing an exceptionally thorough and scholarly book: She writes without showing anger but revealing as coolly as possible the simple facts.
In the case of the further decline of Russia since US intervention with their economy, the chapter I referred you to describes how Gorbachev said that he felt unreasonably pressured by the US to make reforms and to make them too quickly. For me, that can reasonably be called evidence - maybe not proof - especially knowing what 'form' the US has for previous and indeed on-going interventions in the affairs of other nations.
She happens to be rather attractive looking but she is no dumb bimbo.
I think the world should be thankful for people like her - we need many more.

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brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110288 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
13 Feb 2013 - 1:48 PM


Quote: I don't think she is unduly biased because of her "passsionately held beliefs".

Sorry, I may not have been clear as this was not my meaning, she (as all of us) has a bias but not because of her passionately held beliefs but from her upbringing, educational background, experiences and understanding of how the world works.


Quote: revealing as coolly as possible the simple facts

I would only add, "as she sees and presents them"
(my point about the need to look to the bias of the interpretation stands)

Yes, I agree, we do need many more reasoned voices putting the arguments from many different viewpoints, there is no one right answer and my biggest fear for our society is this drive toward "There Can Be Only One" mentality, peaceful disagreement of views and co-operative working toward the good of all ceased decades if not centuries ago
Sad


Quote: the chapter I referred you to describes how Gorbachev said that he felt unreasonably pressured by the US to make reforms and to make them too quickly. For me, that can reasonably be called evidence

certainly evidence of how Gorbachev felt during the negotiations but maybe not evidence of the US "imposition of the free market"? I would challenge whether even the Yanks could pull that off Smile

I find it interesting to look how countries like China, India and Brazil are growing by working with the free capitialist market but not suubscribing to to its worst excesses (apparently)

Last Modified By brian1208 at 13 Feb 2013 - 1:49 PM
gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102290 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
13 Feb 2013 - 3:11 PM


Quote: certainly evidence of how Gorbachev felt during the negotiations but maybe not evidence of the US "imposition of the free market"? I would challenge whether even the Yanks could pull that off


Oh, believe me, the Yanks can pull anything off - imposing their sham democratic views and crazy economy on other nations is their speciality.
Reagan was aggressively anti-communist and the only way Gorbachev, pushed by Yeltsin and other members of his opposition could make a deal with Reagan was to accept US 'reforms'.
US Free Market 'advisers' were in Russia to facilitate this i.e. 'shock and awe' - which means starving the public welfare and spending until the economy buckles even further then push the 'Free Market' - it would be so comical if it were not so disgusting. This ideology has cost literally millions of lives in Latin America and Indonesia, where the CIA would help stir up trouble and assist vicious dictators to ensure that the US Free Market model was enforced, whether people liked it or not. In Iraq and Vietnam the US simply bombed them into submission.
I say again - everyone, and I mean everyone, should read 'The Shock Doctrine' and then they would understand the real and ugly world of global politics much better.


Quote: I find it interesting to look how countries like China, India and Brazil are growing by working with the free capitialist market but not suubscribing to to its worst excesses (apparently)


I'm glad you write 'apparently': India has a super-rich top strata who are ever wealthier and yet there is still extreme poverty among the millions of ordinary people.
The top strata of society in China also seem to be gaining at the expense of the millions of poor at the bottom.
I haven't looked at Brazil so I won't comment on that nations affairs.

My contention is that it is in fact being biased in favour of the West if we ignore the above evidence.

Also, in the interests of being unbiased, I recognise that other nations (e.g. Saudi Arabia, Israel and often Iran) are sometimes unspeakably barbaric.
Then there is Russia, China, Korea - Let's face it, most countries in the world are quite nasty places at times...

My central point in all this is that we need to realise that we (the West) are not the good guys - all nations are surely a mixture of good and bad - too much patriotism can be a very dangerous thing...
(That's me on the national security register!) WinkTongue

Last Modified By gcarth at 13 Feb 2013 - 3:12 PM
brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110288 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
13 Feb 2013 - 3:22 PM


Quote: My central point in all this is that we need to realise that we (the West) are not the good guys - all nations are surely a mixture of good and bad - too much patriotism can be a very dangerous thing...

You will get no argument from me on that! Grin

I do on balance think that maybe the Western culture / economic system, for all its faults, does less harm to its population than most others. Its certainly a lot better now than it was when I started work 50+ years ago


Quote: (That's me on the national security register!)

I'm in good company then Wink

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102290 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
13 Feb 2013 - 3:50 PM


Quote: I do on balance think that maybe the Western culture / economic system, for all its faults, does less harm to its population than most others. Its certainly a lot better now than it was when I started work 50+ years ago



You could well be right. I think I agree with you because I notice you say 'does less harm to its population than most others'.
Of course, if you were to say it causes less harm to other nations's populations than most countries cause, then I couldn't agree. Smile

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