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Should the UK be a "surveillance state" where nothing can be private?

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redsnappa
redsnappa  121916 forum posts United Kingdom
22 Oct 2013 - 6:25 PM


Quote: Should the UK be a "surveillance state"

A pointless question as it already is.

Last Modified By redsnappa at 22 Oct 2013 - 6:26 PM
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22 Oct 2013 - 6:25 PM

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Paul Morgan
Paul Morgan e2 Member 1315402 forum postsPaul Morgan vcard England6 Constructive Critique Points
22 Oct 2013 - 6:56 PM


Quote: Should the UK be a "surveillance state" where nothing can be private?

It already is, can it get any worse ?

thewilliam
22 Oct 2013 - 6:59 PM


Quote: Should the UK be a "surveillance state"A pointless question as it already is.

I might be overweight right now, but I can still decide to shed a few pounds.

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102290 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
23 Oct 2013 - 7:29 PM


Quote: Ben Franklin said:-

Any people prepared to trade freedom for security, deserve neither and will probably lose both.

Ben Franklin was a wise old sod. Wink

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102290 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
24 Oct 2013 - 9:17 PM


Quote: They never give any details about these foiled terror plots do they? Just a lot of vague banalities that we're supposed to believe without question.

This from Media lens may be of interest.

Hi, spaceman: Glad to see you quote from one of my favourite websites. Smile I agree - this latest piece of theirs is a must-read for everyone, in my opinion.Smile

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102290 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
24 Oct 2013 - 9:32 PM


Quote: A pointless question as it already is.

Perhaps it is a pointless question. However, I don't think the question is "Are we becoming a surveillance state": I think it's more a question of "Should we accept this surveillance state that we now are already in.
I think the question is well put, being as it is, couched in rather provocative terms: After all, there are too many people who are silly enough to take all this state control freakery lying down and without question.

arhb
arhb e2 Member 72280 forum postsarhb vcard United Kingdom68 Constructive Critique Points
24 Oct 2013 - 10:17 PM


Quote: After all, there are too many people who are silly enough to take all this state control freakery lying down and without question.

and those who protest it are deemed terrorists...

However, the government always know what's best...

triumphv8
triumphv8  7450 forum posts United Kingdom
24 Oct 2013 - 10:40 PM


Quote: Should we accept this surveillance state that we now are already in........take all this state control freakery lying down

So how is it affecting your life ?

What are either doing , or NOT doing because of it.

Hallie
Hallie  1166 forum posts United Kingdom
24 Oct 2013 - 11:21 PM


Quote: So how is it affecting your life ?

Time will tell? As suggested before the slow erosion of individual freedom and civil liberty, perhaps?


Quote: What are either doing , or NOT doing because of it.

What can we do? Do tell us what you think? Asking questions is pertinent but having ideas, thoughts, even opinions is equally pertinent. What are yours?

triumphv8
triumphv8  7450 forum posts United Kingdom
24 Oct 2013 - 11:51 PM

Well I don't think I have done or not done anything different because of the so-called surveillance state.

Have I ever re-written an email because it may be seen - No

Have I ever not said something on a phone because it may be listened to - No

So that's it, in 10 years of email and mobile phones, nothing, no impact .

However there could be one difference I don't know of - I might be alive because of it ! How do I know if one of those plots that was stopped was for somewhere I was.

Bur neither do I believe in the idea that if you've done nothing wrong then you've nothing to hide - don't persecute the many (e.g ID cards Mr Brown) - just catch the bad guys.

But that is what they're doing and everyone is complaining.

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102290 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
25 Oct 2013 - 7:42 AM


Quote:

So how is it affecting your life ?

1) It makes me angry!
2) It affects my life because I'm offended by the intrusion and unwarranted scrutiny of my e-mails and other documents by strangers: It's not something I'm prepared to put up with. It's like somone peering through the windows of your house.
3) More important is the fact that any government that doesn't like your views and deems your views as being harmful to society can victimise you as a dissident. It's already happening - in the US - so it will be happening here.
4) I believe the terrorist threat has been exaggerated in order that the Western powers can gain their control freakery over their populations - you know, the kind of control freakery that wer'e always accusisng Russia of.
5) I believe strongly that the West has exacerbated any real remaining threat of terrorism by their interference in the Middle East.


Quote: just catch the bad guys.

But are they just catching the bad guys? They seem to me to be catching a lot of innocent guys.
If I seem to be ranting and a bit extreme, that is because I genuinely believe we are being run by an increasingly dangerous and undemocratic clique who are out of control.
If we were being run by a rational bunch of leaders, then I would be less worried but I think we are manifestly not being governed by rational people.

thewilliam
25 Oct 2013 - 9:35 AM

We could learn from the lessons of history.

Once the rulers of ancient Athens shelved the idea of military domination over other cities and peoples, the cultural and scientific life of Athens blossomed and it quickly became a world player of a very different kind. We can still feel the influence today, although some might argue that Greece has forgotten its own lessons.

Britain is well and truly spent as a colonial power. Why do our rulers not recognize this reality and follow the example of ancient Athens? Our science and creative arts are world beaters so why not make full use of them?

triumphv8
triumphv8  7450 forum posts United Kingdom
25 Oct 2013 - 10:29 AM

In response to 1,2,3 :-

But if it's not happening to you, then it makes you just another whining keyboard warrior taking offence by proxy over things that might never happen.

No they only store the statistical data unless they have reason to suspect terrorist activity - if you have made 500 calls to Afghanistan over the past few months - sent emails to 0.b.laden@alquieda.com then yes, they may take a look - but that's what it SHOULD be used for - do you support that level of monitoring ?

What views other than extremist terrorist ones are you expecting this to apply to ? and has it happened ?

I was expecting someone to come up with monitoring of email traffic over G7 demonstrations - but I'd still argue that given the propensity of violence and criminal damage from that group - that this is legitimate in preventing crime.

4,5 and the the rest I pretty much agree with.


I'd argue that there are things a LOT closer to home that directly affect your freedom and freedom of speech.

1) Can you walk down the street safely without fear ? - so last Tuesday I chose not to walk home from the pub after the England game as it involves walking through an area populated with Poles - had problem with them before looking ofr a fight, so I thought Tuesday was high risk

So yes - government policy has affected my freedom - the left wing policy of multiculturalism.

2) I do have to think about expressing an opinion for fear of recrimination from the establishment - surely that IS oppression of freedom of speech

What causes this oppression - the left wing mantra of political correctness.

So your' right we are oppressed but by left wing politics, not any high level anti-terrosist, surveiilance, sate of fear type policy.

Hallie
Hallie  1166 forum posts United Kingdom
25 Oct 2013 - 11:40 AM


Quote: However there could be one difference I don't know of - I might be alive because of it ! How do I know if one of those plots that was stopped was for somewhere I was.

So there's something you don't know but, if someone tells you there's a plot (whatever that may constitute, terror alert increase, the head of the spy business appears on TV and says something about how important it all is, evacuate an embassy somewhere, etc) you feel grateful that we've all been saved or is it only about you?


Quote: Bur neither do I believe in the idea that if you've done nothing wrong then you've nothing to hide - don't persecute the many (e.g ID cards Mr Brown) - just catch the bad guys.

Who are the bad guys? I don't doubt there will be a time when its anyone who doesn't conform, objects or dissents.


Quote: G7 demonstrations - but I'd still argue that given the propensity of violence and criminal damage from that group - that this is legitimate in preventing crime.

Yes G7 are criminals and responsible for death and destruction all over the world under the guise of protecting our 'freedom' Wink It won't be too long before the right to protest is a crime. Its almost that in the US.


Quote: So yes - government policy has affected my freedom - the left wing policy of multiculturalism.

What? I'm not sure if that's hilarious or absurd.


Quote: I do have to think about expressing an opinion for fear of recrimination from the establishment - surely that IS oppression of freedom of speech

What causes this oppression - the left wing mantra of political correctness.

Eh? Never mind terror alerts there should be a nonsense alert Blush

thewilliam
25 Oct 2013 - 12:40 PM


Quote: However there could be one difference I don't know of - I might be alive because of it ! How do I know if one of those plots that was stopped was for somewhere I was.


I'd suggest that much of our "terrorist risk" is a direct result of the inept foreign policy pursued by recent governments of both colours.

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