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Should the UK be a "surveillance state" where nothing can be private?


gcarth e2
10 2.3k 1 United Kingdom
25 Oct 2013 1:07PM

Quote:What? I'm not sure if that's hilarious or absurd.
Yep - hilarious, absurd, and prejudiced.

Quote: I do have to think about expressing an opinion for fear of recrimination from the establishment - surely that IS oppression of freedom of speech
What causes this oppression - the left wing mantra of political correctness.

Hmm...so the Establishment is left-wing? This gets more hilarious and downright foolish by the minute.

Quote:But if it's not happening to you, then it makes you just another whining keyboard warrior taking offence by proxy over things that might never happen.
Well, some of us actually care about what happens to others. Anyway, how do we know what is happening to whom? This is my point - all this needless secrecy and surveillance run by a bunch of mad control freaks - it's mad and downright dangerous. Another point so often overlooked by defenders of heavy secret surveillance is that because the trawling net cast by the operators is so massive, they are sure to miss more terrorists than they catch because there's too much info to sift through.

Quote:Eh? Never mind terror alerts there should be a nonsense alert Blush
Amen!

Quote:What causes this oppression - the left wing mantra of political correctness.
I don't think it's a "left wing" mantra of political correctness but I have to agree with you that there is far too much political correctness - it's often patronising to Muslims or "people of colour" etc. and tends to draw even more attention to existing racism.

Quote:I was expecting someone to come up with monitoring of email traffic over G7 demonstrations - but I'd still argue that given the propensity of violence and criminal damage from that group - that this is legitimate in preventing crime.
Hmm. So you're already going down the road of banning peaceful demonstrations on the pretext that they may become violent - Aaagggh! - 1984 springs to mind!

Quote:I'd suggest that much of our "terrorist risk" is a direct result of the inept foreign policy pursued by recent governments of both colours.
Yes, but I would put it far stronger than that, William: I think the West's foreign policy is not merely inept (they probably know exactly what they're doing) I would suggest their policies have combined to result in a series of war crimes.

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Hallie 1 166 United Kingdom
25 Oct 2013 1:50PM

Quote:Yes, but I would put it far stronger than that, William: I think the West's foreign policy is not merely inept (they probably know exactly what they're doing) I would suggest their policies have combined to result in a series of war crimes.


Indeed. The play with words from the political class would be entertaining if it wasn't so serious. We bomb countries into democracy (which is usually the removal of one dictator to be replaced with another) and to save the civilian population while at the same time carry out drone strikes which has killed thousands of innocent people at a ratio estimated to 50 civilians for every 'terrorist' while dehumanising the act by referring to it as 'collateral damage'. This is usually with a follow up attack on rescuers, what a hideous crime. And this is done with impunity although illegal under international law as recently highlighted by the UN. Obama's drones have been used to assassinate his own citizens - isn't there something in the US constitution about the right to a fair trial? I could go on but you get the point.

Just been reading where the government want to prosecute the Guardian newspaper on the grounds of aiding terrorism, endangering national security and treason! All without supported evidence of course. The witch hunt on whistle blowers - in my view guilty of making public the hypocrisy and crimes of governments - is intended to deter it happening in the future. Thankfully these people have a conscience and courage. Certainly with Edward Snowden, members of his government have called for his assassination.

Democracy is alive and well. Whatever that is Sad
mikehit e2
5 6.8k 11 United Kingdom
25 Oct 2013 3:13PM

Quote:Just been reading where the government want to prosecute the Guardian newspaper on the grounds of aiding terrorism, endangering national security and treason! All without supported evidence of course. The witch hunt on whistle blowers - in my view guilty of making public the hypocrisy and crimes of governments - is intended to deter it happening in the future. Thankfully these people have a conscience and courage. Certainly with Edward Snowden, members of his government have called for his assassination.

Democracy is alive and well. Whatever that is Sad



Some MPs have said that is what he thinks the government should do, but I have seen nothing from anyone in authority in the government. And Clegg has called for an inquiry to establish whether damage has been done, which is not what you said Can you point to where this came from?
triumphv8 7 451 United Kingdom
25 Oct 2013 3:20PM

Quote:So you're already going down the road of banning peaceful demonstrations on the pretext that they may become violent - Aaagggh! - 1984 springs to mind!


No, who said anything about banning them, I used it as an example of where we know that the surveillance in question was used, but to deal with illegal activity - not because of the subject of the protests.

No-one yet has given an example of how surveillance is impacting their lives and freedom and freedom of expression. (Except me)

I've been in Bulgaria this week - and if you all live there - then between the government and the mafia then , yes, just about everything you've written about above is true an I agree - but I don't think you do ?

I think you live in the UK where you can do pretty much say anything you like including direct insult of the royal family,politicians etc, without fear of recrimination (again apart from the example I gave).

Or are you actually going to do something to further your cause other than whinge on a photography website - because if not, I wouldn't worry.
keithh e2
10 23.2k 33 Wallis And Futuna
25 Oct 2013 4:22PM
How much surveillance do people really think goes on beyond the ubiquitous CCTV camera? Most people would be shocked to learn what is not and cannot be monitored.
gcarth e2
10 2.3k 1 United Kingdom
25 Oct 2013 4:31PM

Quote:No-one yet has given an example of how surveillance is impacting their lives and freedom and freedom of expression. (Except me)
I refute that: I've already said how I'm very much personally offended by what the government is doing. I also feel that right now, though I'm apparently free to say quite a lot - who knows what might happen in the future? I don't enjoy saying these things but I feel they need to be said.


Quote:Or are you actually going to do something to further your cause other than whinge on a photography website - because if not, I wouldn't worry.
This may be a photographic website but this is an off-topic/debate forum. I'm not whineging - I'm stating that I'm not prepared to tolerate the ever-increasing government (particularly US) interference in our lives.

Quote:No, who said anything about banning them, I used it as an example of where we know that the surveillance in question was used, but to deal with illegal activity - not because of the subject of the protests.
I can assure you that the powers that be often use any spurious excuse to restrict legal protesters and indeed they smear them through the media. Witness what's happening to whistleblowers like Snowden...
Clearly, I'm not going to change your mind, and you have every right to your opinion but I simply cannot see any meeting of minds with people like you. If you can't see what's happening right now, then you quite clearly still won't see it happening in the future...
brian1208 e2
11 10.4k 12 United Kingdom
25 Oct 2013 4:36PM
Decades ago I learnt the lesson that you never write or transmit any information you don't want shared.

With modern technology its even more the case

I'm not worried about CCTV (it could even help me as I get older and more forgetful), I never have my mobile switched on unless I want to make a call, so "They" would find it hard to track me on my travels (except - oh dear, I use credit and debit cards Tongue )

Having travelled extensively on business I still find the UK a relatively benign place to live in comparison to most, if not all, of the rest of the world

Sorry - in essence I couldn't care less, I've done nothing of interest to anyone in authority and have no plans to do so.
Hallie 1 166 United Kingdom
25 Oct 2013 4:52PM

Quote:Some MPs have said that is what he thinks the government should do, but I have seen nothing from anyone in authority in the government. And Clegg has called for an inquiry to establish whether damage has been done, which is not what you said Can you point to where this came from?


It was in reference to a 'debate' which took place on Tuesday but you're quite right that other than Cameron urging a parliamentary enquiry no one in 'authority' has said much publicly. This was the Guardian's take but there are other sources on the net, not much from main stream. In a more underhand way there have been several journalists held at UK airports where they were questioned and had laptops etc confiscated. I suspect such witch hunts have been prompted from the 'higher authorities'.


Quote:No-one yet has given an example of how surveillance is impacting their lives and freedom and freedom of expression. (Except me)


It would prove the point if the government were to release information regarding their national spy programme. The impact is subtle but as civil liberties and freedoms are eroded it may become more evident. I've already alluded to some of those points.


Quote:Or are you actually going to do something to further your cause other than whinge on a photography website - because if not, I wouldn't worry.


From a personal view, a debate was started and I'm contributing. I don't have a cause as such but being aware and a little informed seems a more healthy option than blindly accepting. If you feel its inappropriate then perhaps your own right wing xenophobic dross is also.


Quote:Sorry - in essence I couldn't care less, I've done nothing of interest to anyone in authority and have no plans to do so.


Neither have I but that's not the point.
brian1208 e2
11 10.4k 12 United Kingdom
25 Oct 2013 5:17PM

Quote:Neither have I but that's not the point.


it is for me Smile

I don't have the energy to spare for things like this but save my ire for things that matter to me and that I can either change or get changed
pulsar69 10 1.6k 6 United Kingdom
25 Oct 2013 5:18PM
right wing xenophobic dross

Grin

now theres a bunch of words i will never hear again in the same sentence
gcarth e2
10 2.3k 1 United Kingdom
25 Oct 2013 6:32PM

Quote:From a personal view, a debate was started and I'm contributing. I don't have a cause as such but being aware and a little informed seems a more healthy option than blindly accepting. If you feel its inappropriate then perhaps your own right wing xenophobic dross is also.
Absolutely spot on. It's all a question of being sheeple or people: Do we want to be our own man or woman...or some shallow, nondescript sycophant who nods their heads at every piece of propaganda pumped out by our ruling elite?
brian1208 e2
11 10.4k 12 United Kingdom
25 Oct 2013 7:01PM

Quote:From a personal view, a debate was started and I'm contributing. I don't have a cause as such but being aware and a little informed seems a more healthy option than blindly accepting. If you feel its inappropriate then perhaps your own right wing xenophobic dross is also.Absolutely spot on. It's all a question of being sheeple or people: Do we want to be our own man or woman...or some shallow, nondescript sycophant who nods their heads at every piece of propaganda pumped out by our ruling elite?


I'm my own man and believe nothing the ruling elite pump out, but then again, I believe nothing I read here! Tongue
gcarth e2
10 2.3k 1 United Kingdom
25 Oct 2013 7:17PM

Quote:I'm my own man and believe nothing the ruling elite pump out, but then again, I believe nothing I read here! Tongue
Fair point. Question everything, I say. Smile
brian1208 e2
11 10.4k 12 United Kingdom
25 Oct 2013 7:27PM
two favourite quotes:

"The question is - not, am I paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?"

"Just because I'm not paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me!"
keithh e2
10 23.2k 33 Wallis And Futuna
25 Oct 2013 7:37PM
This is how much of a surveillance state the UK is.

Imagine that you're investigating someone and they have a Facebook page. You join under an assumed name and manage to get your suspect to accept you as a friend, thereby allowing you access to their page which is set to 'friends only'

Nothing you learn from that is admissible and if found out you could well be in trouble yourself.

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