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Should the UK be a "surveillance state" where nothing can be private?


triumphv8 7 453 United Kingdom
25 Oct 2013 9:52PM
Who says I'm blindingly accepting ? I am equally able to judge and asses what goes on and formulate an opinion. To suggest otherwise and that only people from your point of view can do it, is bigotry.

Opposite opinions are fine when justified and not just making up insults and dismissing the opposite view - I actually value gcarth's comment on many subjects, he quite often offers a point of view I hadn't previously considered - and then I may think again.


Quote: right wing xenophobic dross


You do realise that's proving my point - as I knew someone would, in making that comment against that specific truthful fact - showing that limits on out freedom of speech are closer to home and nothing to do with government surveillance- you've just done it - I do hope you don't report it to the authorities - that would be very 1984.

But you see I spend half my time working with Eastern Europeans, and the other half actually in Eastern Europe, love it love the people, and I employ quite a few of them, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, and have a good social circle of locals in half a dozen towns across the region - so I am the last person you can accuse of being a xenophobe based on my statement.

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seahawk e2
7 616 United Kingdom
26 Oct 2013 10:59AM
Agree with a lot of what's been said already but here's my take on this:-

a) surveillance is all about power; it can be done easily in this electronic age and the people who do it reach the point where they do it for the sake of doing it in order to further their existence. Gathering information about people becomes a compulsion; before anyone shouts 'Nonsense!' just think about those of us who collect things - stamps, old cameras, whatever. The thrill lies in the act of collecting!

b) There was never a truer statement than Lord Acton's, that 'power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely'.

b) The UK is not a democracy in its true sense; what we have is what the Gov't and Civil Service think we ought to have, not what we want i.e. the UK is governed from the top down not from the bottom up. If you want to see the difference look at how Switzerland is run, where local communities have real power over their own affairs (and Switzerland is not perfect by any means). My ideal would be to run the UK like Switzerland but that would mean federalising UK and it's not going to happen as there are too many vested interests and a revolution would be required.
The amount of surveillance going on would have made the Gestapo envious - I thought we fought a war to prevent just that kind of Gov't behaviour!

Rant over, sorry if I've offended anyone.
thewilliam 6 4.9k
26 Oct 2013 11:24AM

Quote:Do we want to be our own man or woman...or some shallow, nondescript sycophant who nods their heads at every piece of propaganda pumped out by our ruling elite?


I'd suggest that many of our people get their opinions and decide which way to vote from what they read in the red-top papers.
gcarth e2
10 2.3k 1 United Kingdom
26 Oct 2013 6:20PM

Quote:Rant over, sorry if I've offended anyone.
I don't know about it being a rant - but I liked what you say, anyway. Wink

Quote:The amount of surveillance going on would have made the Gestapo envious - I thought we fought a war to prevent just that kind of Gov't behaviour!

Yep. That "nice chap", Mr. Herman Göring, observed that “The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. All you have to do is tell them they’re being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism. It works the same way in any country.”
That is exactly what our leaders are doing today: they accuse people like Snowden, Greenwald etc. as being unpatriotic because they blow the whistle on their disgusting lies and secret surveillance.
brian1208 e2
11 10.6k 12 United Kingdom
26 Oct 2013 9:57PM

Quote:so I am the last person you can accuse of being a xenophobe based on my statement.


its a bit like


Quote:The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. All you have to do is tell them they’re being attacked


Any one with opposing views can so easily be vilified by bringing in the Racist (or Toff or other derogatory name) card.

Its a common but useful ploy one sees in most aspects of Politics and in particular, in web debates
CDSINUK 2 223 England
27 Oct 2013 1:22PM
I used to believe that if you are not up to anything illegal then surveillence shouldn't matter, but nowaday's im not so sure...... to give an example, I was looking up how to make home made rockets, I mean the small pump up water type made from plastic bottles, but the website I tried first took me to a site that tells you how to make rocket propellent,
this visit could be misinterpreted by a gov't dept as something more sinister, and just for looking it up could put me on a watch list,
its the type of thing where an innocent look on a website could lead to more serious things, is that good or bad, well if everyone looking at activity like this is sensible about what they have seen, then I guess its ok, but we all know how some people get it wrong, so if I have armed MI5 officers knocking my door down tomorrow then I guess its not!!!
the internet is supposed to be a free source of information, by the people, for the people, but anyone who believes in freedom of information and innocent until proven guilty is living in another world, the sad thing once again is that the few that use it for terrorism is making it bad for everyone else, that's life I guess, and we can argue and protest as much as we like, however if your life is saved from some ( a hole ) trying to blow you up, and I came about they were stopped by looking at e mails, and website visits, well i'm ok with that .....
Hallie 1 166 United Kingdom
27 Oct 2013 1:45PM

Quote:Any one with opposing views can so easily be vilified by bringing in the Racist (or Toff or other derogatory name) card.

Its a common but useful ploy one sees in most aspects of Politics and in particular, in web debates




Quote: so last Tuesday I chose not to walk home from the pub after the England game as it involves walking through an area populated with Poles - had problem with them before looking ofr a fight

So yes - government policy has affected my freedom - the left wing policy of multiculturalism.



I suppose it could be interpreted as all embracing and welcoming of other people and cultures Blush
thewilliam 6 4.9k
27 Oct 2013 2:15PM
When the television news reported the case of the Ukrainian who had murdered the Islamic grandfather and planted bombs outside mosques, they showed video of a tree being blown out of the ground.

As teenagers, nearly 50 years ago, we used to play with home-made explosives and blew a few trees out of the ground. There were no terrorist ambitions for us: we were just having fun!
brian1208 e2
11 10.6k 12 United Kingdom
27 Oct 2013 2:32PM

Quote: suppose it could be interpreted as all embracing and welcoming of other people and cultures Blush


Shame they didn't ask the opinion of the indigenous population, who they were supposed to be representing, first though but then some Governments know best what's good for their party, rather than the country as a whole (maybe we need more surveillance of those in power, not the other way around? Tongue )
Hallie 1 166 United Kingdom
27 Oct 2013 2:48PM

Quote:suppose it could be interpreted as all embracing and welcoming of other people and cultures Blush

Shame they didn't ask the opinion of the indigenous population, who they were supposed to be representing, first though but then some Governments know best what's good for their party, rather than the country as a whole (maybe we need more surveillance of those in power, not the other way around? Tongue )



Theoretically they are asked when they get to vote - load of nonsense I know but many fall for it. Lets not forget that most of the non indigenous people contribute more than they take Wink Most Polish people I've met are being treated for injuries inflicted by the indigenous population so maybe that one balances out Tongue

Yes, the party will always come first, as does self interest when it comes to politics and the political class. Nothing new there.

More surveillance of those in power sounds a good plan to me Smile
brian1208 e2
11 10.6k 12 United Kingdom
27 Oct 2013 2:58PM

Quote:Theoretically they are asked when they get to vote


Hmm, I don't remember ever seeing anything about open-borders immigration policy in any of the Labour manifestos during the B&B years Smile
Hallie 1 166 United Kingdom
27 Oct 2013 3:10PM

Quote:Theoretically they are asked when they get to vote

Hmm, I don't remember ever seeing anything about open-borders immigration policy in any of the Labour manifestos during the B&B years Smile



Oh that old favourite! I care little for either manifestos but expect the Tories to increase their popular vote by banging on about it Wink

The EU - that great democratic platform, may have something to do with it Smile

Ps. I did use 'theoretically', being a non-believer Tongue

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