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The Figures Don't Add Up

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mikehit
mikehit  56691 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
27 Nov 2012 - 11:42 AM

Pretty good summary, cambirder. I envy my Dad and his generation for that reason. But with the declining qualityof care provision, many people face the prospect of parents living with them in their dotage. A real return to the 'old style' geriatric care and for two generations who never witnessed this first hand it will be a huge shock to the system.

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brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110368 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
27 Nov 2012 - 12:06 PM


Quote: A real return to the 'old style' geriatric care and for two generations who never witnessed this first hand it will be a huge shock to the system.

a lot of the problem is that previous governments removed the dedicated Geriatric wards in hospital with the stupid idea that the elderly and infirm could be "Cared for in the Community". Result, private companies got involved and a large element of the cost of "care" that is now provided is down to profits for the shareholders

it really annoys me that its become fashionable for politicians and the "opinon formers" to talk of the elderly as being "A problem and burden on Society" when in fact we are members of society who have paid our way through our lives, invested in savings and pensions and believed the various governments who told us that by paying our taxes and NI we were paying for our future care.

The fact that this is not so now and that our pensions and savings have been so savagely degraded is not down us but to the incompetence of governments and those charged with managing our economy who have totally buggered up what was a perfectly effective (if not ideal) system in the name of modernisation and change

The fact that they have pissed about with nature thus keeping us "olds" alive for longer than our natural span (six score years and ten) has also played a significant role.

If you think there is a problem now, just wait until the current generation of 40-50 year olds find that life expectancy has soared to 90 - 100 years, and they still won't have a cure for senile dementia! Sad

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139544 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
27 Nov 2012 - 12:10 PM

People are living too long as a result of advances of medicine. Looked at in evolutionary terms, we spend trillions battling against Darwinism! Wink

Nick_w
Nick_w e2 Member 73906 forum postsNick_w vcard England99 Constructive Critique Points
27 Nov 2012 - 12:23 PM

The problem is no government really wants to tackle the situation as the decisions will inevitiably be unpopular - and they have to think of the 4-5 year parlimentary life cycle.

The one problem that no one wants to talk about is the one we are creating for the kids now. If they go to University, they will come out with 50K of debt (tuition fees + living costs). So I predict 15 years from now there will be an outcry from the NHS saying the costs of fertility treetment is too high due to women leaving it even later to start a family, the housing market will be saying that first time buyers are in their 50's so the private sector will have to provide family housing all because of the debt we are loading on our kids. All because they will be looking to clear the debt before taking on other commitments (mortgage and family). Add into this they will be paying more to pay for us oldies. No wonder there is a debt problem, the government (of all persuadions) warn against it - yet they are responsible, in part, for creating it.

What I hope doesn't happen but I fear will - different generations will be set against each other. The younger ones been more and more annoyed with the amount they will have to pay for the elderly - the elderly complaining that the younger generation arn't paying enough for their upkeep.

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110368 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
27 Nov 2012 - 12:32 PM


Quote:
What I hope doesn't happen but I fear will - different generations will be set against each other. The younger ones been more and more annoyed with the amount they will have to pay for the elderly - the elderly complaining that the younger generation arn't paying enough for their upkeep.



to late, its happening now:


Quote: At a hearing in the House of Lords, experts from a London University and the Bank of England said that politicians will have made “winners” of older people and “losers” of younger people.

They said a combination of high house prices, rising government debt, unemployment and more expensive education mean young people are getting a raw deal compared with their parents and grand-parents.

“Current young people will be contributors to the public purse, whereas older generations haven’t,” said Professor James Sefton, an academic at Imperial College.

He said younger people do not seem to be outraged at the moment but this is likely to change as they become more aware they are being financially squeezed.

“I think they should be angry and I think the deal they are getting is poor,” he said. “There are a lot of transfers going on in the system that are from the young towards the old. The awareness of it is very poor but it will come out.”


I think this sentence
Quote: “Current young people will be contributors to the public purse, whereas older generations haven’t,”

is outrageous not only being a downright lie its also designed to cause anger in the young

cambirder
cambirder  107202 forum posts England
27 Nov 2012 - 12:33 PM


Quote: a lot of the problem is that previous governments removed the dedicated Geriatric wards in hospital with the stupid idea that the elderly and infirm could be "Cared for in the Community".

Had you ever been in a geriatric ward? I can assure you I never want to be in one of those.


Quote: in fact we are members of society who have paid our way through our lives, invested in savings and pensions and believed the various governments who told us that by paying our taxes and NI we were paying for our future care.


I think you will find that we were never told that although many seem to assume this was so. Its always been that the wage earners pay for the retired.


Quote: People are living too long as a result of advances of medicine. Looked at in evolutionary terms, we spend trillions battling against Darwinism!

I think you need to revisit Darwin CB, living well beyond child bearing age does not effect human evolution, its healthcare at the other end of life that is more likely to have an impact such as fertility treatments.

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110368 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
27 Nov 2012 - 12:38 PM

[quoteHad you ever been in a geriatric ward? I can assure you I never want to be in one of those.]
[/quote]

yes and my wife has nursed on them. As always, there were bad and good examples but at least the system recognised that the elderly have different needs from the main population that can't be met by "care in the community" as is becoming so obvious now


Quote: I think you will find that we were never told that although many seem to assume this was so. Its always been that the wage earners pay for the retired.




Quote: National Insurance (NI) in the United Kingdom is a system of contributions paid by workers and employers, towards the cost of certain state benefits. It was initially a contributory system of insurance against illness and unemployment, and later also provided retirement pensions and other benefits.[1] It was first introduced by the National Insurance Act 1911, expanded by the Labour government in 1948 and has been subject to numerous amendments in subsequent years.

I do agree Cambirder that my generation and those before were naive in believing that the system knew best and doing our best to be self-sufficient when we should have had the wit to realise that the way to live was to sponge of society, live in council housing and spend every penny we could get our hands on, knowing that "They" would have to look aftetr us in our old age Sad (and before you ask, yes I do know what living on the social and in council accomodation is like as "others" in my family did very nicely out of it and always thought I was a mug working for a living - how right they were )

Last Modified By brian1208 at 27 Nov 2012 - 12:43 PM
Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139544 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
27 Nov 2012 - 12:49 PM

We seem to have an increased fear of death in the modern age - perhaps this has something to do with the decline of religion. So we try to prolong life with scant regard to the quality of it.

As regards Darwinism, I was thinking more in terms of 'survival of the fittest'. The very thought of that, when applied to homo sapiens, fills us with horror and loathing!

Last Modified By Carabosse at 27 Nov 2012 - 12:49 PM
thewilliam
27 Nov 2012 - 12:54 PM

Successive governments have got us in the present mess because their priority was re-election and not the long-term good of the country.

The tax bonanza from North Sea oil was squandered. The Norwegians used theirs to modernise their infrastructure which generated jobs and further prosperity so that their GDP is one of the highest in the world. Thatcher's lot didn't bother about infrastructure or industry and used the money to fund record levels of unemployment and tax cuts for the rich.

When I was a youngster, consumer lending was restricted. No building society would lend more than 3 times the principal salary so this is what an "average" house cost. When the banks were able to offer 120% mortgages at 5 times a couple's combined income, house prices rose so that an average house, once again, cost the amount that an average couple could borrow. Homeowners didn't complain because they felt they were making money.

When I went through University, this was restricted to just 5% of our age-group. We were selected by merit and students from ordinary families were fully funded. My student grant was more than my wife's salary as a junior nurse and I was free to work during the vacations.

At graduation, I thought about 6 jobs, applied for 5 and was able to choose between 3. Now that half of the population get degrees, most graduates can't work in their chosen field, except for engineers. Each year, the UK produces more photography graduates than the number of registered professional photographers in the whole of the EU. Why?

Yes, my generation has has a good life but I wonder what legacy we're giving our grand-children.

Last Modified By thewilliam at 27 Nov 2012 - 12:58 PM
DOGSBODY
DOGSBODY  61432 forum posts England30 Constructive Critique Points
27 Nov 2012 - 1:54 PM

What we need is a grand cull.

We could start with all politicians and prisoners, then bankers, footballers and football club owners. All the over 75s should be exterminated at birth then accountants and solicitors.

We might then have a population that is capable of supporting itself.TongueWinkWink

mikehit
mikehit  56691 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
27 Nov 2012 - 2:14 PM


Quote: All the over 75s should be exterminated at birth

How does that work? Tongue

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110368 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
27 Nov 2012 - 2:22 PM

You have just reminded me of a very sensible proposal I made to Personnel when I started with Shell, along the lines:

"Pay me my pension when I'm young then I will guarantee to work with you until I'm reach retirement age after which I will look after myself".

This would have given them a very motivated (if some what stoned) worker who they wouldn't have to pay a pension to after he left company employment.

What's more it would have been socially responsible 'cos if I'd had that sort of money early on I can bet you I wouldn't have lived past 60! Tongue

(For some reason they refused my suggestion, but were kind enough to keep me in employment until I retired early Grin )

cats_123
cats_123 e2 Member 104030 forum postscats_123 vcard Northern Ireland25 Constructive Critique Points
27 Nov 2012 - 3:07 PM

Cheap Housing????

a selection of mortgage interest rates...
Year Average Rate2 Basic Rate3
1984 12.19 11.88
1985 13.01 12.75
1986 12.32 12.30
1987 10.34 10.30
1988 12.75 12.77
1989 14.44 14.42
1990 14.34 14.48
1991 11.39 11.52

with the current base rate at 0.50% - "you've never had it so good" WinkSmile


Quote: In 1957, Harold Macmillan made a speech in Bedford, UK to his fellow Conservatives, in which he offered the opinion that:

"Let us be frank about it: most of our people have never had it so good".


Last Modified By cats_123 at 27 Nov 2012 - 3:07 PM
brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110368 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
27 Nov 2012 - 4:18 PM

adding to cats figures, the inflation rates were even more "interesting"

1980 18.00%

1979 13.40%

1978 8.30%

1977 15.80%

1976 16.50%

1975 24.20%

1974 16.00%

at the peak my company was giving us half-yearly pay rises just to help us keep up with the cost of living (and failing)

You youngsters don't know what financial pressure is (yet) Tongue

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
27 Nov 2012 - 4:22 PM


Quote: Does the cost of Police come under the schools/other children services? Presumably Social Services are also included in that.

Is never quoted as a part of the Council tax as it is a 'precept'. ie Councils have no choice other than to levy it. I noticed that in freezing our Council tax last year we still payed a lot more than we did before.

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